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W3C abandons consensus, standardizes DRM, EFF resigns

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Re: W3C abandons consensus, standardizes DRM, EFF resigns

#811
post #91
post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you're discounting the opportunity cost here. In a world where browser manufacturers, as a block, refused to implement DRM, it's seems obvious that sooner or later visual media producers would be forced to the table, to gain access to paying consumers. We could be in a DRM-free world, without the inconveniences of elaborate technical restrictions on pass-through and mutual device compatibility, or black box b…

I see how that gets us to a DRM-free world, but not so much why ordinary consumers would care. To a first approximation, no ordinary consumer uses TPB. Unauthorized copies are less convenient (especially since mainstream playback devices won't play them) and frequently of lower quality. The price point for legitimate copies is low enough that the purchase decision isn't that hard. A standards body is a great place to…

> no ordinary consumer uses TPB

In the US, maybe. In some other, less capitalist countries… well, paying for non-physical things seemed ridiculous. Still kinda does, but app stores have somewhat changed that.

Re: W3C abandons consensus, standardizes DRM, EFF resigns

#812
post #723
post #628

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It took me a while to understand how politics are very different than the binary world of logic and strictly enforced rule of my CS universe. In politics, very often, there are no strictly enforced rules, there are groups of pressures pushing in opposing directions. W3C has no way to prevent proprietary browsers for doing what they want, they just put some pressure on them. They know that going through W3C is the eas…

> This is a small amount of pushing power. Not true. See Google's NaCl and Mozilla and Microsoft's own alternatives to that. Neither went anywhere because each browser pushed in a different direction. It's only through W3C that they managed to build WebAssembly and all agree to use it. I see this DRM thing the same way. Without W3C they may have built their own DRM solutions (and in fact, they have, years ago), but t…

> I see this DRM thing the same way. Without W3C they may have built their own DRM solutions (and in fact, they have, years ago), but they wouldn't be compatible with each other, which means they wouldn't get too much adoption either.

Prior to the first spec being presented to the W3C, it had already been worked on by two of the biggest browser vendors.

Re: W3C abandons consensus, standardizes DRM, EFF resigns

#813
post #765
post #752

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If we want to win that war, we should focus on content not technology, Mosaic got a lead in the game because, despite the 'techies' seeing no use for images, image support was added, with images came the transition of media, users were au fait with articles containing text and images and could now experience similar on line, this alone was not enough, content creators starting creating content that people wanted to c…

I agree. Back in the dark ages, when the battle of www vs Gopher was still on, I sided heavily on the side of Gopher because it didn't get in the way of the content. Gopher was a means to navigate the maze of content and most of the content was textual, postscript and neatly typeset. You could sit down with it and read it focused or print it out. We've regressed to the point where 5KiB of text comes with 2MiB of crap…

This is why I usually use just lynx.

Re: W3C abandons consensus, standardizes DRM, EFF resigns

#814
post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is really the issue. If we could convince media rightsholders that DRM is harmful and unnecessary then all of this heartache wouldn't be necessary. I don't expect this to happen in my lifetime. Any slight glimmer of hope from Apple ditching DRM on iTunes has died as nobody else shows the slightest interest in following their lead.

Didn't I used to be able to buy mp3s from amazon - no DRM? That was before spotify and other streaming solutions of course. Do people want DRM-free media, or do they want ease of use?

You can still buy m4as from iTunes, no DRM.

Re: W3C abandons consensus, standardizes DRM, EFF resigns

#815

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't see any way to win that war. The IP oligarchs have won it. They own the W3C now. But there is clearly a demand for DRM-free browsers. And if the worst fears are realized, and mainstream browsers won't display media without DRM, or become snooping devices for IP oligarchs, that demand will increase. Sure, it'll never be more than a niche, but DRM-free browsers will be there for those who want them.

> But there is clearly a demand for DRM-free browsers. There is not a demand for DRM-free browser. I don't know anyone in the real world that demands a DRM-free browser.

They probably won't tell you what they really want ;)

Re: W3C abandons consensus, standardizes DRM, EFF resigns

#816
post #531

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The really insane part is that the DRM is pointless anyway, you can go onto any file sharing/streaming site within minutes of a Netflix release dropping and it's there in HD. I still maintain my netflix account 1) because my mum uses it with her Roku and 2) because they should be paid for providing value and good TV. I have the technical skills (like nearly all HN readers I'd imagine) to stream whatever I want with e…

The big guys know that DRM doesn't work. DRM is about putting "color onto the bits" so people can be sued. Nothing more; nothing less.

Far too many people seem to not realise this, and if you want to argue with content producers about it, arguing over the existence of content on TPB won't get you anywhere because they're not totally blind and can see it doesn't stop content from getting there.

Re: W3C abandons consensus, standardizes DRM, EFF resigns

#817
post #83

Can anyone explain what are the possible implications of this? I am imagining a bunch of annoying add-ons to access news articles and what not, but is there a potential to carry over to smaller or niche spaces?

Read the spec.

It's directly tied to video, it's not possible to use for news articles. And, uh, it's been available for several years. It's only used by Netflix and the like.

Re: W3C abandons consensus, standardizes DRM, EFF resigns

#818

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't see any way to win that war. The IP oligarchs have won it. They own the W3C now. But there is clearly a demand for DRM-free browsers. And if the worst fears are realized, and mainstream browsers won't display media without DRM, or become snooping devices for IP oligarchs, that demand will increase. Sure, it'll never be more than a niche, but DRM-free browsers will be there for those who want them.

This is a paranoid slippery slope. EME existed for several years already, and was implemented in browsers. Standardization doesn't change much. And no one except the big movie producers even wants to use DRM. If you don't watch movies on the web, you'll never see DRM. Firefox is DRM-free by default. It will download Widevine CDM if you start watching Netflix, but you can untick a flag in the settings to completely fo…

> Firefox is DRM-free by default.

It is now. But next year? In five years? And if it's gone, then what?

> This is a paranoid slippery slope.

Well, it's a slippery slope. And I do tend to plan for the worst. Plus a safety factor.

Re: W3C abandons consensus, standardizes DRM, EFF resigns

#819
post #36

On one hand, this is terrible for freedom in our software; on the other, this isn't the "death of the open Web" that some are proclaiming. The media groups want DRM and they will get it. This doesn't mean that we are going to lose all freedom on the Web. It's a step in that direction, certainly, but we're sure as heck not there yet.

this is just the first step down a slippery slope. and it _is_ a slippery slope. are you really going to _not_ use gmail and google maps because you can't see the source code? of course you're not. but is it beneficial for google to lock their code up behind a DRM blob? of course it is. so there is every incentive in the world for web pages to be made proprietary, and no incentive at all for users to put up a fight (…

[deleted]

Re: W3C abandons consensus, standardizes DRM, EFF resigns

#820

For the record, the EFF only joined the W3C to fight EME in the first place. They're not resigning in protest, they're leaving the group because they didn't win the single battle they joined for the purpose of fighting.

Do you have a source for that? The latest article that references the W3C on their site already shows them as a member, and it appears that they were heavily involved in Do Not Track work before EME. Did they post something somewhere when they were joining? edit: The reply below has the link. Thank you!

Do Not Track was a document produced by an IETF WG, and totally unrelated to the W3C.
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