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Gut Germs Appear to Play Role in Multiple Sclerosis

scientificamerican.com

81–90 of 122 posts

Re: Gut Germs Appear to Play Role in Multiple Sclerosis

#81
This is very interesting, and I particularly like the causal test of inducing sensitization to the antigens present in the bacteria through exposure. It's probably the strongest causal link you're going to get in humans (you can't infect them with the bacteria to see if it induces nerve damage for real!).

The problem here seems to be that this doesn't measure how feasible it is to reverse the tendency for the immune system to attack the nerves. Even if you erradicate the causative bacteria, once the immune system has started to attack the nerves, it's possible that it won't stop. Maybe the presence of the antigens (the proteins that are attacket) in the bacteria is needed as the trigger that starts the attack, but once that's gone, the low level presence of the same antigens in the nerves might be enough to sustain the attack. On a more optimistic note, maybe the erradication of the bacteria leads to a lack of simulation that causes the aggressive cells tow ither and die. This must be tested experimentally.

If the autoimmune ttack doesn't stop after erradication of bacteria, maybe a case can be made for aggressive prevention with testing for those bacteria periodically, ,especially in families predisposed to the disease, and prompt erradication once they appear. Maybe there are correlations between diet and the presence of such bacteria, which we can exploit.

I think the long term impact of these studies will depend on how reversible the "state of war" between the immune system and the nerves is.

Re: Gut Germs Appear to Play Role in Multiple Sclerosis

#82
post #12
post #10

the gut immune system has 70– 80% of the body's immune cells. http://m.ajpgi.physiology.org/content/277/5/G922 It seems like a pretty obvious connection once you know that detail. If you have any kind of chronic medical condition, you would likely benefit from improving your gut health. (Hint: Dietary changes are a good place to start.)

What kind of changes? I have a hard time searching google about gut health without feeling like none of it's scientific, and all a scam for advertising or selling products.

I did some research on this a few months ago and landed on this book, which is highly recommended by physicians with interest in the relationship between gut health and autoimmune diseases.

https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/15802745-the-immune-syst...

Re: Gut Germs Appear to Play Role in Multiple Sclerosis

#83

My wife was recently diagnosed with MS. Luckily she studied biochemistry and is now a data scientists. She spoke immediately with a professional nutritionist at the hospital. Apparently at the current moment the best is to keep your PH value in the body neutral. It's particularly important to prevent "acidity". Which is not easy as a lot of food we eat is acidic. The reason why you want to not be acidic is: MS causes…

> Apparently at the current moment the best is to keep your PH value in the body neutral. It's particularly important to prevent "acidity" If you're talking about a neutral pH as in pH = 7.0 (the usual accepted definition of neutral), these claims are contradictory. The pH of the human blood is usually between 7.35 and 7.45. This is usually way less acicic than the neutral pH of 7.0. Furthermore, a pH of 7 is usually…

I second the fact that this is crackpot-level science - you can basically only change the acidity of your urine with dietary modifications - not your blood. Btw changing the PH value of your body thing is endorsed by various charlatans for all kinds of stuff - from curing the flu to cancer.

Re: Gut Germs Appear to Play Role in Multiple Sclerosis

#84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Small amounts of animal protein and lots of raw greens and vegetables, tubers and roots. Everything else is extra. Be careful though about making any specific recommendations here or else someone with a different idea will attack you for not backing it up with scientific data. Because you shouldn't try to figure out what to eat until you get a PhD.

Or alternatively, go on keto diet - 60-70% fat (mostly animal and milk fat), 20-30% protein, 5-10% carbs. Make sure to increase your electrolyte and fiber intake to account for lower intake of those through the diet.

A few colleagues at work recently started their keto diets (primarily in order to lose weight). I am interested in gut health and looked at some of the background materials I could find. It seems reasonable that the body can switch its energy source to fat, but the (long term) effects on overall health seem to be poorly studied/ understood.

Re: Gut Germs Appear to Play Role in Multiple Sclerosis

#85
post #54
post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Researchers in genomics are aware of this and that is why researchers are expected to correct their p-values for multiple testing, for example using q-values.

No that isn't the point. These variables are often associated with an outcome or phenotype in a statistically rigorous manner. The point is that knowing this doesn't get us anywhere.

Get us anywhere? That is research, small pieces to the larger puzzle. Biology is complex, a lot of molecules doing different things. We don't have perfect tools to study those molecules or their interactions. Genomics and statistics offer one path to their study, and they complement already existing methods.

Re: Gut Germs Appear to Play Role in Multiple Sclerosis

#86
post #85
post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No that isn't the point. These variables are often associated with an outcome or phenotype in a statistically rigorous manner. The point is that knowing this doesn't get us anywhere.

Get us anywhere? That is research, small pieces to the larger puzzle. Biology is complex, a lot of molecules doing different things. We don't have perfect tools to study those molecules or their interactions. Genomics and statistics offer one path to their study, and they complement already existing methods.

I don't understand what you are trying to say. My point is also that the tools are imperfect, particularly when it comes to generating useful insights, as opposed to just correlations.

Re: Gut Germs Appear to Play Role in Multiple Sclerosis

#87

I wonder if there's a similar correlation between the gut and something like ALS.

Probably not. Unlike MS, which is an autoimmune disease, ALS is not autoimmune. The exact cause is only known in some cases, but it seems to stem from problems with the machinery inside the cell, not an aggression by the immune system from outside the cell.

How about CFS?

Re: Gut Germs Appear to Play Role in Multiple Sclerosis

#88
post #12
post #10

the gut immune system has 70– 80% of the body's immune cells. http://m.ajpgi.physiology.org/content/277/5/G922 It seems like a pretty obvious connection once you know that detail. If you have any kind of chronic medical condition, you would likely benefit from improving your gut health. (Hint: Dietary changes are a good place to start.)

What kind of changes? I have a hard time searching google about gut health without feeling like none of it's scientific, and all a scam for advertising or selling products.

I think if you find a very healthy fellow human being, and eat him, you'll be in the sweet spot.

Re: Gut Germs Appear to Play Role in Multiple Sclerosis

#89
post #86
post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Get us anywhere? That is research, small pieces to the larger puzzle. Biology is complex, a lot of molecules doing different things. We don't have perfect tools to study those molecules or their interactions. Genomics and statistics offer one path to their study, and they complement already existing methods.

I don't understand what you are trying to say. My point is also that the tools are imperfect, particularly when it comes to generating useful insights, as opposed to just correlations.

If your tools don't generate useful insights, then you are not using them right. A properly designed study, employing high-dimensional genomics data, can for sure generate mechanistic insights, not just correlations. It's all about your study design.

Re: Gut Germs Appear to Play Role in Multiple Sclerosis

#90

My wife was recently diagnosed with MS. Luckily she studied biochemistry and is now a data scientists. She spoke immediately with a professional nutritionist at the hospital. Apparently at the current moment the best is to keep your PH value in the body neutral. It's particularly important to prevent "acidity". Which is not easy as a lot of food we eat is acidic. The reason why you want to not be acidic is: MS causes…

>>professional nutritionist

Was pretty sure this was going to be followed up with nonsense.

>>Apparently at the current moment the best is to keep your PH value in the body neutral

Right, it was.

If that was best, then why has the body not evolved into this pattern after millions of years, especially considering that diet prior to the agricultural revolution was almost certainly more acidic than ours today?

Read Alan Aragon's monthly research review for data-driven ideas on nutrition and exercise. A "professional nutritionist" is almost certainly going to have - at the very best - outdated ideas from decades ago seared into their brains. The truth is that we know vanishingly little about nutrition from a micro perspective; any strong claims beyond that are exceptionally suspect.

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