Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

W3C abandons consensus, standardizes DRM, EFF resigns

boingboing.net

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

751–760 of 1001 posts

Re: W3C abandons consensus, standardizes DRM, EFF resigns

#751

Post by peoplewindow »

sasas wrote: post #629
md224 wrote: post #619

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm somewhat sympathetic to the argument for DRM (we need to ensure artists receive fair compensation for their work), but I wonder: If the entertainment industry could survive the age of "DVD ripping with abandon", can't it survive the age of "people copying Netflix movies with abandon"? Do industry leaders anticipate the latter will be much worse than the former? Is the cash flow situation that dire? Or is DRM abou…

How do you prevent someone from capturing their screen and recording a movie? Do you really think it will stop or slow down piracy ? What we do know for certain is it will strip you as a consumer of control over of hardware and software that you purchased.

Cinavia does exactly that via watermarking the audio channel. Various playback devices are required to embed a Cinavia detector as part of their licensing requirements.

Re: W3C abandons consensus, standardizes DRM, EFF resigns

#752

Post by tudorw »

near wrote: post #710
RcouF1uZ4gsC wrote: post #4

Basically, unless you are writing a browser with decent marketshare, you defacto have no voice in making the standards. Basically, the only voices that matter are Mozilla (Firefox), Apple (Safari), Google(Chrome), and Microsoft (Edge/Explorer). Despite what any standard says, web developers are going to go by the behavior of the browsers do. The only company on the list of browser makers that really has any desire to…

The web has been engineered to a complexity level so grossly obscene that it is all but impossible for independent developers to produce fully independent web browsers anymore. You would need hundreds of millions of dollars in capital and strong leadership to produce a browser that would be successful in today's world. I could dedicate the rest of my life working 100 hours a week on a browser, and I would die before…

If we want to win that war, we should focus on content not technology, Mosaic got a lead in the game because, despite the 'techies' seeing no use for images, image support was added, with images came the transition of media, users were au fait with articles containing text and images and could now experience similar on line, this alone was not enough, content creators starting creating content that people wanted to consume, that's what drove people to 'get online', they were missing out.

Don't get me wrong, it's still a long shot, but if an organisation could build a raft of talent, get that talent to make content that was only available on an open and progressive platform, then you might get some traction. So what might that look like, well, say I had the funds to secure 100 of the worlds best financial journalists and only delivered that content on a novel protocol, do you think I might be able to persuade some people to run a novel application to access that content, oh hang on, did I just describe Bloomberg...

Re: W3C abandons consensus, standardizes DRM, EFF resigns

#753

Post by Freak_NL »

Alex3917 wrote: post #671
tptacek wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems self-evidently unharmful, in that we appear to be in a golden era of delivering content online so extraordinary that it threatens traditional television networks. I understand that this is an extremely unpopular sentiment on HN, but here goes: at least with respect to video content, the industry seems to have largely proven DRM concerns unfounded. Update: modulo the Hickson concerns below. Continuing: DRM ce…

> It seems self-evidently unharmful, in that we appear to be in a golden era of delivering content online so extraordinary that it threatens traditional television networks. One of the main reasons we need so much new content is because a large percentage of old content is no longer accessible, mostly for reasons related to rights management.

There are so many excellent films made in the second half of the twentieth century that most people will only encounter when, ironically, a broadcaster shows it on classical linear television.

I had hopes that Netflix becoming a global phenomenon meant that a vast library of content would become available, but instead we are now in an era of increasing fragmentation of content offered, with content providers becoming content creators (fine), for exclusive content (rather limiting), offering only a token of third party content of dubious quality (hey!).

Here is a radical though: reduce copyright to 28 years, and let the Netflixes and HBO's compete against that! Not going to happen of course — the best some of us can do in the meantime is pretend copyright did end after such a term, or just meekly submit to whatever is made available, DRM-shackles and all.

Re: W3C abandons consensus, standardizes DRM, EFF resigns

#754

Post by madez »

jpttsn wrote: post #712
joe_the_user wrote: post #607

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As was said before, DRM implies that no user controls their machine because it implies that someone else's content is always "safe" on that user's machine. DRM is inherently pernicious to everything from basic computer security to a democratic society. The right to read: https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/right-to-read.html

I still control my machine. I just run software that I don't understand to get content to play. If I wasn't able to run a certain subset of software, i.e. DRM, then my machine would be less universal, not more.

No, you do not control your machine.

Controling your machine does not imply you always understand what it is doing, jusy like controling your car doesn't imply you always know exactly where it is and how it got there. You may give your keys to your spouse to drive somewhere and you trust that they do just that. Back to computers, that means when you run someones elses software you don't necessarily know how it is doing what it is doing and you trust it does what you hope it does, yet you could be in control.

So when do you lose control? In the world of cars, when you do not have the choice whom to give your keys, when someone has the power to take your keys independently of what you want, then you do not have control. In the world of computers, DRM is to take your keys, or to never give them to you, in the first place. DRM has led to components in each and every PC that are built to be beyond the control of the owner.

I don't see a big problem with a DRM-capable computer on it's own, however, I don't think it's ideal and would argue against it. But the _big_ problem starts when I cannot buy a computer without it, anymore. That is where we are.

Re: W3C abandons consensus, standardizes DRM, EFF resigns

#755

Post by rimliu »

wolfgke wrote: post #259
vkou wrote: post #234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you want a text-only web, with no major content producers on it, you already have that. Just disable your browser's multimedia plugins. Or use Lynx, or some other browser of the 90s. The open parts of the web will still work. Anyways, Netflix, Google, Apple, and Microsoft (probably - they aren't making their votes public) support this, so this is a great time to cancel your subscriptions and stop using their produ…

> If you want a text-only web, with no major content producers on it, you already have that. And that (the web as it is) is exactly what I want. And I want that the media companies who cannot accept that the web is free of DRM to stay away from it.

I will gladly take DRMed netflix over ad-ridden crap that "free" web gives us. It seams that people are using "walled garden", "free/not free", "user hostile" without giving any thought. It sure cannot be user hostile when there are no users, can it?

Re: W3C abandons consensus, standardizes DRM, EFF resigns

#756

Post by rimliu »

Crespyl wrote: post #245
rimliu wrote: post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There was a bunch of proprietary plugins before EME was even on the horizon.

And we were finally killing them off with the death of Flash, Java Plug-In, and Silverlight, and the adoption of HTML5.

Funny how all are up to arms against EME, but are fine with advertising crap. Just because it it open, I guess.

Re: W3C abandons consensus, standardizes DRM, EFF resigns

#757

Post by craigsmansion »

Myrmornis wrote: post #740

Would someone mind helping me understand the debate? I don't watch TV or even movies very often (when I do I use Amazon prime). I never watch movies more than once. I do listen to music multiple times. But AFAIK all the MP3s for sale on major sites are DRM-free nowadays. What are the main specific scenarios involving DRM that people are talking about here?

The likely fallout of this decision is that web pages will cease to exist and will be replaced by tiny DRM protected proprietary binaries for which the web is simply the delivery mechanism.

It's not just about movies or music, but also about text pages.

Big content has now managed to co-opt the open web. It is no longer a network of peers (some bigger, some smaller) but introduces two tiers, owners and users, and all the power disparity that comes with that.

Re: W3C abandons consensus, standardizes DRM, EFF resigns

#758

Post by rimliu »

syshum wrote: post #459
2trill2spill wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hogwash, there is more open source software now then ever before.

Is there though? There are more open source libraries, tools, frameworks, languages and other tools used to create software But I am seeing a HUGE shift to Closed off, non open SaaS and property installed apps for end users. Outside of dev tools I am not seeing a shift to open source. GPL a licence that protects user freedom has fallen out of favor in place of MIT and BSD which protects developer freedom So like EME,…

  > Outside of dev tools I am not seeing a shift to open
  > source.
Because very few open source authors understand end users which are not developers. And comments here prove that.

Re: W3C abandons consensus, standardizes DRM, EFF resigns

#759

Post by victorNicollet »

Freak_NL wrote: post #747
bsder wrote: post #531

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The big guys know that DRM doesn't work. DRM is about putting "color onto the bits" so people can be sued. Nothing more; nothing less.

> color onto the bits Does that mean (effectively) watermarking? Do pirated releases even come from (defeated) DRM sources these days?

I believe it's a reference to http://ansuz.sooke.bc.ca/entry/23

Re: W3C abandons consensus, standardizes DRM, EFF resigns

#760

Post by franga2000 »

tptacek wrote: post #91
barrkel wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you're discounting the opportunity cost here. In a world where browser manufacturers, as a block, refused to implement DRM, it's seems obvious that sooner or later visual media producers would be forced to the table, to gain access to paying consumers. We could be in a DRM-free world, without the inconveniences of elaborate technical restrictions on pass-through and mutual device compatibility, or black box b…

I see how that gets us to a DRM-free world, but not so much why ordinary consumers would care. To a first approximation, no ordinary consumer uses TPB. Unauthorized copies are less convenient (especially since mainstream playback devices won't play them) and frequently of lower quality. The price point for legitimate copies is low enough that the purchase decision isn't that hard. A standards body is a great place to…

In my experience, it has always been easier to pirate movies and TV shows - especially in the last few years. Netflix only had a few of the shows I watch, I had to get HBO Go for the rest. Now Disney is pulling everything to their service. You need multiple services, each with their own apps. Good luck on a 10Mbps connection. Getting DVDs is impossible less than a year after release. With CouchPotato, I find the movie on IMDb and click a button to add to to downloads. Sonarr downloads new episodes of shows just hours after release. Even Stremio (think PopcornTime, but better) is easier to use than most streaming services.
Post reply on HN