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W3C abandons consensus, standardizes DRM, EFF resigns

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Re: W3C abandons consensus, standardizes DRM, EFF resigns

#731

Post by DCKing »

dannyobrien wrote: post #648
DCKing wrote: post #253

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lots of this stuff is so US focused. Any European nation for one will let you reverse engineer stuff you buy or download to your own heart's content in the safety of your own home. I expect many countries in the world are civilized like that.

Almost every country, with the exception of Israel, has implemented the anti-DRM provisions of the WIPO Copyright Treaty using similar language to the United States, or worse. In the European countries, it's embodied in the European Copyright Directive: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyright_Directive#Technologi... That's one of the reason why we argued so strongly that the W3C should include a covenant. Even if EFF…

You're right. I've done some digging, and some similar language has been implemented at least in the Netherlands (for the Dutch, this is article 29a of our Auteurswet). Although it's somewhat vague, it does bum me out. It seems the Dutch implementation has not been enforced all that often (mostly to combat game console mod chips), but it has been used to fight security researchers publishing stuff on security weaknesses in our public transport RFID cards... Thought we were better than that.

Re: W3C abandons consensus, standardizes DRM, EFF resigns

#733

Post by benchaney »

sev wrote: post #547
benchaney wrote: post #540

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What are you talking about? Every popular TV show or movie is hosted on a free platform (free meaning both no cost and allowing freedom). How is that "working in practice"?

We are taking about DRM here. How do you know they are being stolen by breaking DRM? Maybe they copy DVD's or screeners or hacking a content provider. Not necessarily bypassing DRM. Some that do that I've seen are very low quality, hence my statement about lossless.

Either way, DRM isn't "working in practice" if all the information it purports to protect is publicly available.

DVD's have (broken) DRM, so ripping a DVD counts as breaking DRM. Screeners are also a work around for DRM. Hacking a content provider wouldn't provide the constant stream of content that is available from various separate companies.

I think that denying that DRM is broken requires some pretty serious ignorance of the reality of the situation.

Re: W3C abandons consensus, standardizes DRM, EFF resigns

#734

Post by a_imho »

gtirloni wrote: post #450
eof wrote: post #439

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a follow up, isn't all this DRM for naught? If you send the video and the audio to my computer, I can record it after it's decrypted. What problem does this really solve? I already use netflix/amazon because it's more convenient than torrenting, unless it isn't. Seems the possibility is nil DRM-free versions of DRM content won't be available anyway.

You're right, content will always be pirated. However, security and rights management is never about definitive solutions. DRM makes it hard for 99% of the people and that's enough for copyright holders. They can focus their resources on the other 1% (unfortunately including poeple with legitimate reasons). I'm not agreeing with this but it's how it is and I don't see that changing. I agree with another commenter tha…

DRM makes it hard for 99% of the people

IMO we have oversupply of interchangeably disposable content fighting for a limited number of clicks, if someone makes it hard for their customers to engage, they are shooting themselves in the foot. E.g. whenever I'm greeted with a paywall, that tab is instaclosed.

Re: W3C abandons consensus, standardizes DRM, EFF resigns

#735

Post by kagamine »

Crespyl wrote: post #572
icebraining wrote: post #356

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Firefox will heavily sandbox their EME plugins. They get no direct access to the host OS.

Anyone taking bets on how long it will be before CDMs start requiring extensions that allow access to platform Output Protection/HDCP mechanisms? If nothing else, the standard already allows for the CDM to access the network (albeit managed by the user-agent) which means, for example, it could ping Microsoft to ask about this particular Win10 computer (as identified by user agent, IP address, and/or user account data…

> with MS and hardware manufacturers already working to tighten things from the other end (see HDCP and the various frameworks for "protected content" that MS has been working towards).

HN users would do well to keep this in mind the next time they are singing MS's praises about how MS are embracing open source and becoming the savior of all things programming.

Re: W3C abandons consensus, standardizes DRM, EFF resigns

#736

Post by shmerl »

favorited wrote: post #730
shmerl wrote: post #603

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They sold out those standards to DRM proponents, so that ends the trust of them working for the common good.

Again, they're not charged with "the common good." Their goal is, "if there is going to be DRM content served via HTTP + web browsers, we should provide a standard API for it so browsers can implement it natively without plugins." Their place is to be pragmatic and technical, not political.

This isn't political, it's ethical.

Re: W3C abandons consensus, standardizes DRM, EFF resigns

#737

Post by thaumasiotes »

wiz21c wrote: post #719
forapurpose wrote: post #698

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In politics, very often, there are no strictly enforced rules, there are groups of pressures pushing in opposing directions. All power is ultimately politics, not rules. People can use politics to change the rules, which happens often through lobbyists, influence, or even force. Powerful actors operate on the level of politics; they write the rules. The plebeians operate at the level of rules. If I'm unhappy with s…

>>> The issues most people deal with in their everyday lives aren't important enough to motivate political action. Save for the fact that their life is completely shaped by politics. I like your analysis a lot, but I don't like your conclusion. Because ultimately, humans make politics, so one can influence them. In french there's a saying : if you don't care about politics, then politics will take care of you...

> In french there's a saying : if you don't care about politics, then politics will take care of you...

There is an English template for expressing this idea; it goes "You may not be interested in politics, but politics is interested in you".

I don't know what originally filled the spot where I've put in "politics".

Re: W3C abandons consensus, standardizes DRM, EFF resigns

#738

Post by TeMPOraL »

whipoodle wrote: post #125
lewisinc wrote: post #116

What benefit is there in the EFF resigning? I'm not educated on the issue as well as those on the committee, but it feels like not having the EFF on the committee at all is going to do more harm than good.

Not everyone thinks in utilitarian terms. And, maybe the EFF thinks the W3C is now an organization focused on legitimizing whatever big tech companies say. If so, they'd probably not want to be considered a part of that process.

Oh, but maybe they do think in utilitarian terms (and it's not bad, either). Them staying would legitimize W3C's decision. As it is, many (myself included) look at EFF for early warnings, and them leaving W3C is an important signal (hell, that's why we have this thread in the first place), and made me personally seriously lose trust in W3C.

Re: W3C abandons consensus, standardizes DRM, EFF resigns

#739

Post by emodendroket »

MBCook wrote: post #552
felipelemos wrote: post #235

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This the only possible way to win on the long run.

Would an anti-DRM law actually be constitutional?

Yes, why not? Believe it or not it's not an issue Madison ever weighed in on.

Re: W3C abandons consensus, standardizes DRM, EFF resigns

#740

Post by Myrmornis »

Would someone mind helping me understand the debate? I don't watch TV or even movies very often (when I do I use Amazon prime). I never watch movies more than once. I do listen to music multiple times. But AFAIK all the MP3s for sale on major sites are DRM-free nowadays. What are the main specific scenarios involving DRM that people are talking about here?
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