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Top medical experts say we should decriminalize all drugs (2016)

washingtonpost.com

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Re: Top medical experts say we should decriminalize all drugs (2016)

#91
post #5

Finally. I hope this will signal a turning point on this insane approach to national health in all countries. Drugs are a health problem, not a criminal problem. Lone experts have been fired in western countries when they have expressed this common sense sentiments alone [0]. I hope this groups fares better. Nixon started the war on drugs anyway as a mean to attack left and black activists [1]. Any previous legislati…

Depends on your goal. If it's to reduce mortality, yes, decriminalize is good. But it will increase usage.

OK. Show your work. There are examples of decriminalization in different nations and regions. Where's the evidence?

Re: Top medical experts say we should decriminalize all drugs (2016)

#92
post #51
post #5

Finally. I hope this will signal a turning point on this insane approach to national health in all countries. Drugs are a health problem, not a criminal problem. Lone experts have been fired in western countries when they have expressed this common sense sentiments alone [0]. I hope this groups fares better. Nixon started the war on drugs anyway as a mean to attack left and black activists [1]. Any previous legislati…

Almost every post about drugs on HN has the obligatory bit about Nixon starting the war on drugs. It's like a Shibboleth or something. Nixon probably tried to make political hay out of it sure, but the war against intoxicants has been going on probably since people started using intoxicants. No shortage of earlier historical examples. At most Nixon is a chapter in the ongoing saga. So please, for all that is holy, st…

The bit about Nixon is obligatory for a good reason. It sidesteps a lot of historical nuances but is factually correct and underpins the key issue which emerges when people discuss drugs: people imagine that drugs are criminalized for good reasons while in fact the heavy handed judicial approach hurts taxpayers and it hurts the people needing help by stigmatizing them.

The criminal process does not help public health outcomes.

There is this fallacy among even smart people that if a thing has legislation controlling it must be well thought out and they can stop analyzing it.

The Nixon bit is a strong reminder that sometimes things are like they are for some obscure political reason rather than common sense. Daylights saving time used in many countries is a similar weird political vestige.

There is a strong moral sentiment about drugs in some segments of population. There are good reasons to fear substance abuse. But, churches also have good political reasons to fear them. If people can get raptured sitting at home with a group of friends what purpose would a conregation serve then?

Therefore, from churches perspective it's politically expedient to stigmatize drug use as morally corrupt.

Confusing drugs as morally corrupt adds to the odd ball mix of criminalization.

Addiction is never good, mmkay. People need help to fight it. Social networks are among the most important bits of this help. That's why shaming and stigmatization of addicts is one of the cruelest and counter productive things a society can do.

My mother perished of alcohol abuse recently. While I don't blame anyone, the stigmatization of society did not help.

Re: Top medical experts say we should decriminalize all drugs (2016)

#93

Honest question: How would decriminalization of drugs work in practice? Would it be legal to e.g. import and sell cristal meth in stores? What about cheap self-made alcohol that might contain dangerous stuff like methanol; where do you draw the line?

Decriminalization ≠ legalization; the idea here is decriminalizing usage and personal possession, which in no way entails legalizing production, cultivation or commercialization. The point is to enable addicts to seek treatment without fear of legal trouble.

Re: Top medical experts say we should decriminalize all drugs (2016)

#95

As Chomsky said, the way to deal with drug abuse is through education and treatment. That’s how we successfully reduced smoking, drinking coffee and other unhealthy habits in the USA. Not by throwing people in jail.

Was/is there really a public health effort in the US to curb coffee intake?

Re: Top medical experts say we should decriminalize all drugs (2016)

#96

Full steam ahead with decriminalization of possession/use, and with regulated markets for psychedelic and most stimulants However after seeing how business behaves when it can sell opiates, I'm in favor of even more regulation than we currently have on some drug markets (Also, if it were up to me, I'd ban ads for drugs, including alcohol and prescriptions)

Stimulants can be pretty dangerous TBH. I don’t think class a drugs should just go on sale, but I don’t think people should be locked up for them. Baby steps.

Re: Top medical experts say we should decriminalize all drugs (2016)

#97

Some reasons for decriminalization of use and possession, summarized: (i.e., removing criminal penalties or making it no jail time possible, but not government supplied) - War on drugs has failed. Criminalization has consequences on community - in many cases, most of the negative effects come from the criminalization, not the drug. - Consensual crimes that don’t harm others shouldn’t be crimes. - Drug prohibition doe…

Also there is a whole industry of developing new substances - the law process does not keep up with this.

Re: Top medical experts say we should decriminalize all drugs (2016)

#98
post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Depends on your goal. If it's to reduce mortality, yes, decriminalize is good. But it will increase usage.

>But it will increase usage. Not necessarily. When people really want something they will eventually find a way to get it anyway, it's not because you criminalize it that its usage drops. Just like IP infringement has not significantly dropped since they can put people in jail for it.

"Not necessarily. When people really want something they will eventually find a way to get it anyway,"

No, not true at all.

Supply and Demand.

The 'cost' of doing drugs in society right now is pretty dam high. Social stigma, the possibility of going to jail, various professional licences lost.

The 'free market price' of synthetic heroin and other drugs would be as cheap as sugar. Walk down to the local store and buy 1Kg of meth for $20. Jesus no.

People are really un-pragmatic about this issue.

I've had my exposure to it: a friend OD'd while in SF, another friend drug related suicide, and a third friend just fell in to a 'crack whole' for 20 years and now he lives full time in a clinic. Another - friend of a friend - has a 'weed' addiction (I know it's not common, but it exists) and he lives in a home as well.

These people were ruined long before they ever passed away or went into a home.

Selling crack or opioids in the corner store would instantly yield a massive public health crises.

'Legal' drugs - i.e. prescription drugs are already a major, major driver of the problem.

Here in Canada - doctors are not required to give out the 'absolute minimum' of opioids after operations etc. You don't get 'a bottle' with 'refills' - you get like 3 pills.

Why? Because there was a public healthcare crises developing even with legal substances.

That's how strict they need to be, because that's what's on the line.

If 'legal drugs' did not cause problems, then I suggest the massive amount of 'doctor shopping' and 'fake prescriptions' all over the US would not be resulting in serious problems, but they are.

It's just one of those things - some people can handle their drugs - most people can't and fall down the slippery slide.

Re: Top medical experts say we should decriminalize all drugs (2016)

#99
post #63
post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, barriers to entry matter. If you're craving a drug and it's sold in a convenient store around the corner, you might purchase it more frequently than if you had to buy it from potentially dangerous people in a seedy part of town. That said, as with any bad habit I'm sure usage would still decrease over time for most individuals as they mature or if healthier alternatives are readily available.

Barrier to exit matters as well. When you buy it from dangerous people, you have to be in contact with dangerous people. It gives dangerous people leverage against you and people who care about you.

There is no 'danger' from 'not buying stuff from your dealer' anymore.

Re: Top medical experts say we should decriminalize all drugs (2016)

#100
post #60

Bottom line is deaths from overdose. Drugs criminalized, USA: 150 deaths/million people/year Drugs legalized, Portugal: 3 deaths/million people/year

Death penalty for drug trafficking, Singapore: 0 deaths/million people/year

Drug use might be more prevalent than the official statistics suggest.

[0]: https://www.reuters.com/article/idUSSIN135004

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