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Top medical experts say we should decriminalize all drugs (2016)

washingtonpost.com

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Re: Top medical experts say we should decriminalize all drugs (2016)

#61

Post by xahrepap »

everdev wrote: post #53
ekianjo wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>But it will increase usage. Not necessarily. When people really want something they will eventually find a way to get it anyway, it's not because you criminalize it that its usage drops. Just like IP infringement has not significantly dropped since they can put people in jail for it.

Well, barriers to entry matter. If you're craving a drug and it's sold in a convenient store around the corner, you might purchase it more frequently than if you had to buy it from potentially dangerous people in a seedy part of town. That said, as with any bad habit I'm sure usage would still decrease over time for most individuals as they mature or if healthier alternatives are readily available.

But also, people who have addictions wouldn't be considered criminals so they wouldn't be so reluctant to get help.

Re: Top medical experts say we should decriminalize all drugs (2016)

#62

Post by opo »

fsloth wrote: post #5

Finally. I hope this will signal a turning point on this insane approach to national health in all countries. Drugs are a health problem, not a criminal problem. Lone experts have been fired in western countries when they have expressed this common sense sentiments alone [0]. I hope this groups fares better. Nixon started the war on drugs anyway as a mean to attack left and black activists [1]. Any previous legislati…

>Finally. I hope this will signal a turning point on this insane approach to national health in all countries. Drugs are a health problem, not a criminal problem.

Agreed.

>...Nixon started the war on drugs anyway as a mean to attack left and black activists

This point is a little controversial, in, as far as I know, we have to take Ehrlichman's word on this.

https://www.quora.com/Is-John-Ehrlichman-a-credible-source-w...

While Nixon is remembered for "war on drugs", the actual substance of his policies seems to be different than what people think it was:

>...Their consensus is that because he was dramatically expanding the U.S. treatment system (by 350% in just 18 months!) and cutting criminal penalties, he had to reassure his right wing that he hadn’t gone soft. So he laid on some of the toughest anti-drug rhetoric in history, including making a White House speech declaring a “war on drugs” and calling drugs “public enemy number one”. It worked so well as cover that many people remember that “tough” press event and forget that what Nixon did at it was introduce not a general or a cop or a preacher to be his drug policy chief but…a medical doctor (Jerry Jaffe, a sweet, bookish man who had longish hair and sideburns and often wore the Mickey Mouse tie his kids had given him).

http://www.samefacts.com/2011/06/drug-policy/who-started-the...

Re: Top medical experts say we should decriminalize all drugs (2016)

#63

Post by joesb »

everdev wrote: post #53
ekianjo wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>But it will increase usage. Not necessarily. When people really want something they will eventually find a way to get it anyway, it's not because you criminalize it that its usage drops. Just like IP infringement has not significantly dropped since they can put people in jail for it.

Well, barriers to entry matter. If you're craving a drug and it's sold in a convenient store around the corner, you might purchase it more frequently than if you had to buy it from potentially dangerous people in a seedy part of town. That said, as with any bad habit I'm sure usage would still decrease over time for most individuals as they mature or if healthier alternatives are readily available.

Barrier to exit matters as well.

When you buy it from dangerous people, you have to be in contact with dangerous people. It gives dangerous people leverage against you and people who care about you.

Re: Top medical experts say we should decriminalize all drugs (2016)

#64

Post by madshiva »

everdev wrote: post #53
ekianjo wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>But it will increase usage. Not necessarily. When people really want something they will eventually find a way to get it anyway, it's not because you criminalize it that its usage drops. Just like IP infringement has not significantly dropped since they can put people in jail for it.

Well, barriers to entry matter. If you're craving a drug and it's sold in a convenient store around the corner, you might purchase it more frequently than if you had to buy it from potentially dangerous people in a seedy part of town. That said, as with any bad habit I'm sure usage would still decrease over time for most individuals as they mature or if healthier alternatives are readily available.

That can be anybody. Your old grandma, to this beautifull lady, or more common that guy in the corner, but not only "dangerous people" otherwise nobody will buy it.

Re: Top medical experts say we should decriminalize all drugs (2016)

#65

Post by TheSpiceIsLife »

mythrwy wrote: post #51
fsloth wrote: post #5

Finally. I hope this will signal a turning point on this insane approach to national health in all countries. Drugs are a health problem, not a criminal problem. Lone experts have been fired in western countries when they have expressed this common sense sentiments alone [0]. I hope this groups fares better. Nixon started the war on drugs anyway as a mean to attack left and black activists [1]. Any previous legislati…

Almost every post about drugs on HN has the obligatory bit about Nixon starting the war on drugs. It's like a Shibboleth or something. Nixon probably tried to make political hay out of it sure, but the war against intoxicants has been going on probably since people started using intoxicants. No shortage of earlier historical examples. At most Nixon is a chapter in the ongoing saga. So please, for all that is holy, st…

In support of this I'll point out that Prohibition predates Nixon's presidency by 50 years.

The righteous have been lording it over the morally condemned since time immemorial.

Re: Top medical experts say we should decriminalize all drugs (2016)

#66

Post by SilentCrossing »

The article is about "decriminalization of all nonviolent drug use and possession". This sounds noble, but as we found out in the Netherlands you will have to make a distinction between soft drugs and hard drugs. Hard drugs is always associated with crime and most of the time violent crime and gangs.

So I would say. Been there done that. We are cracking down on this type of policy, since 'education' does not work and it seems that prisons do not make the criminal as some other comments claim... Well they can always wish for it, but reality does not care either way.

Re: Top medical experts say we should decriminalize all drugs (2016)

#67

Post by lord_jim »

Synaesthesia wrote: post #6

As Chomsky said, the way to deal with drug abuse is through education and treatment. That’s how we successfully reduced smoking, drinking coffee and other unhealthy habits in the USA. Not by throwing people in jail.

I'd argued that heavy regulation has been just as important. For example, how many other products besides cigarettes have to carry a warning over half of their packaging?

Also taxation. Ideally the taxes should make people understand the true cost of their purchase. (I know this is not usually how cigarette tax is actually determined)

Re: Top medical experts say we should decriminalize all drugs (2016)

#68

Post by ianai »

everdev wrote: post #53
ekianjo wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>But it will increase usage. Not necessarily. When people really want something they will eventually find a way to get it anyway, it's not because you criminalize it that its usage drops. Just like IP infringement has not significantly dropped since they can put people in jail for it.

Well, barriers to entry matter. If you're craving a drug and it's sold in a convenient store around the corner, you might purchase it more frequently than if you had to buy it from potentially dangerous people in a seedy part of town. That said, as with any bad habit I'm sure usage would still decrease over time for most individuals as they mature or if healthier alternatives are readily available.

If you tell people they can't skip in a certain lane on the sidewalk they will skip in that certain lane. There will always be people who just want to cross the line because the lines existence makes them curious or "rebellious". It's like a psychological balance for some people. Being told "no" really makes some people want something.

The counter of this is why underage drinking is higher in the US than elsewhere. Society made it a taboo and that attracts people. In countries with lower age limits there's less underage drinking. The culture itself doesn't see it as such a big deal and there's no pent up against.

Re: Top medical experts say we should decriminalize all drugs (2016)

#69

Post by TheSpiceIsLife »

throwaway613834 wrote: post #57
mythrwy wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Almost every post about drugs on HN has the obligatory bit about Nixon starting the war on drugs. It's like a Shibboleth or something. Nixon probably tried to make political hay out of it sure, but the war against intoxicants has been going on probably since people started using intoxicants. No shortage of earlier historical examples. At most Nixon is a chapter in the ongoing saga. So please, for all that is holy, st…

My understanding is that there's the war on drugs and then there's the War on Drugs, and the latter is what is (correctly?) attributed to Nixon, even when it is not bothered to be capitalized.

Another context for the same words:

Vietnam could be considered the war on drugs.

If what I've read is correct, US soldiers were given amphetamine pills "like candy".

Re: Top medical experts say we should decriminalize all drugs (2016)

#70

Post by sneak »

justonepost wrote: post #46
fsloth wrote: post #5

Finally. I hope this will signal a turning point on this insane approach to national health in all countries. Drugs are a health problem, not a criminal problem. Lone experts have been fired in western countries when they have expressed this common sense sentiments alone [0]. I hope this groups fares better. Nixon started the war on drugs anyway as a mean to attack left and black activists [1]. Any previous legislati…

Depends on your goal. If it's to reduce mortality, yes, decriminalize is good. But it will increase usage.

When the United States criminalized alcohol, usage went up.
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