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U.S. Navy to use Xbox 360 controllers to operate periscopes aboard submarines

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Re: U.S. Navy to use Xbox 360 controllers to operate periscopes aboard submarines

#31

Post by 0xbear »

microcolonel wrote: post #30
0xbear wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The periscope company will just CNC it out of a solid block of titanium then. Microsoft wouldn’t want their business. It’s a relatively small amount of money for very large amount of pain in the rear. And even if they did want DoDs business, DoD wouldn’t deal with them directly, instead they’d subcontract them through one of those giant contracting companies with “Federal” in their name.

> DoD wouldn’t deal with them directly Why wouldn't they deal with them directly? They already do! I understand being cynical, but you have to admit you're making a satire of this system, no matter how ridiculous it is in reality.

I’m not being cynical, I’m speaking from direct experience. Satire, as it turns out, is not quite as inventive as government bureaucrats.

Re: U.S. Navy to use Xbox 360 controllers to operate periscopes aboard submarines

#32

Post by komali2 »

exikyut wrote: post #9
mikeash wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I fear the day when a controller in the rec room breaks, and they realize that the reverse is also true.

$30000/$30=1000 replacement '360 controllers. Now you just need space for all of them. I guarantee that for something as fundamental as the main periscope control, _everything_ is going to have replacement parts. That's why $30k is so expensive, it's not $30k, it's $60k or $90k or $120k. Now they have the kind of problem that's fun to have: for half or quarter of the cost of replacing that proprietary controller, the…

Surely there isn't that much room on a sub. I've heard horror stories of how cramped they are.

Re: U.S. Navy to use Xbox 360 controllers to operate periscopes aboard submarines

#33

Post by azernik »

microcolonel wrote: post #23
0xbear wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You have only very vague understanding of how our government works. First, they will not contract this to some startup or anything, but instead the company that does the periscope will do it. Then there are reams of regulations to follow, an everything the contractor does will be the most expensive option available because they charge percentage of “cost”, and the higher the cost, the more money they make. I would be…

> First, they will not contract this to some startup or anything, but instead the company that does the periscope will do it. Wouldn't they contract Microsoft to do it, since it's their own design? Even by DoD standards, Microsoft is not a "startup". I know that there are 360 controllers used in the field already (not sure about Navy). Even if they have different standards, what you're describing probably couldn't be…

The article specifically mentions that Lockheed is handling the integration.

Re: U.S. Navy to use Xbox 360 controllers to operate periscopes aboard submarines

#34

Post by lygaret »

jonathankoren wrote: post #26

I've noticed xbox style controllers are very common in the military now. I'm thinking it's a generational thing. It wasn't that long ago that you would have seen a big joystick covered in buttons serving this purpose.

imo, less generational and simply forward progress in human factors, engineering and design.

Re: U.S. Navy to use Xbox 360 controllers to operate periscopes aboard submarines

#35

Post by unethical_ban »

ams6110 wrote: post #22
alexasmyths wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

+10. This should be done in many more places. Though with 'cost plus' contracts... providers are incented to create crazy new things for every problem. If there weren't moral questions around this - it would be amazing to see a NATO forces 'hackathon' where people create top gear/tech for soldiers with off-the-shelf components and software. I have a funny feeling that 'if they put their hearts to it' - there'd be no…

How many COTS parts does a SpaceX rocket use?

I've been reading the bio of Musk and it discusses that they progressively replace COTS as much as possible, building and designing in house because in the end, THAT is cheaper.

Re: U.S. Navy to use Xbox 360 controllers to operate periscopes aboard submarines

#36

Post by matt4077 »

ams6110 wrote: post #22
alexasmyths wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

+10. This should be done in many more places. Though with 'cost plus' contracts... providers are incented to create crazy new things for every problem. If there weren't moral questions around this - it would be amazing to see a NATO forces 'hackathon' where people create top gear/tech for soldiers with off-the-shelf components and software. I have a funny feeling that 'if they put their hearts to it' - there'd be no…

How many COTS parts does a SpaceX rocket use?

The Musk biography is a pretty good source for that question. From what I remember, SpaceX produces a rather extreme fraction of its parts in-house (something like 80%–it's been a while). What they don't create themselves, they often source from the consumer market. They avoid the tradition space industry supplies wherever possible because they have had success with off-the-shelve parts available for a fraction of the costs.

I believe the book gave a radio module as an example. It was available for $120,000 at "space-rated" quality, but they bought something at RadioShack for around $3,000, and later replaced it with an in-house part that was smaller/lighter/more power efficient.

Re: U.S. Navy to use Xbox 360 controllers to operate periscopes aboard submarines

#37

Post by alkonaut »

jedc wrote: post #17

Former submariner here. My thoughts echo those of a ex-submariner group I'm a part of -- it makes sense across the board. It's 1) a cost saving measure, 2) WAY easier to get replacements, and 3) WAAAYY easier to train new people to use it safely and efficiently.

Prediction: the U.S. Navy will pay $1000+ for the controller.

Re: U.S. Navy to use Xbox 360 controllers to operate periscopes aboard submarines

#38

Post by [deleted] »

0xbear wrote: post #21
microcolonel wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Given that the 360 is no longer the current model, it's possible that they just took back the molds and swapped out a couple of the ICs. There's very little in a 360 controller to begin with. Even the wireless ones have only one complex/specialized IC[0], and it seems to have been designed by Microsoft themselves. About half of the semiconductor industry is headquartered in the United States, and about half of the wa…

You have only very vague understanding of how our government works. First, they will not contract this to some startup or anything, but instead the company that does the periscope will do it. Then there are reams of regulations to follow, an everything the contractor does will be the most expensive option available because they charge percentage of “cost”, and the higher the cost, the more money they make. I would be…

[deleted]

Re: U.S. Navy to use Xbox 360 controllers to operate periscopes aboard submarines

#39

Post by rasz »

microcolonel wrote: post #18
jjoonathan wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Once you add the cost of adapting the periscope HW/SW and organizing + performing a one-off small run of XBox controllers on a US-only supply chain with military markup at each level, I suspect those "XBox controllers" cost closer to $30k than $30.

Given that the 360 is no longer the current model, it's possible that they just took back the molds and swapped out a couple of the ICs. There's very little in a 360 controller to begin with. Even the wireless ones have only one complex/specialized IC[0], and it seems to have been designed by Microsoft themselves. About half of the semiconductor industry is headquartered in the United States, and about half of the wa…

Microsoft doesnt manufacture those microcontrollers, they are off the shelf Microchip/Infineon parts.

Re: U.S. Navy to use Xbox 360 controllers to operate periscopes aboard submarines

#40

Post by matt4077 »

0xbear wrote: post #21
microcolonel wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Given that the 360 is no longer the current model, it's possible that they just took back the molds and swapped out a couple of the ICs. There's very little in a 360 controller to begin with. Even the wireless ones have only one complex/specialized IC[0], and it seems to have been designed by Microsoft themselves. About half of the semiconductor industry is headquartered in the United States, and about half of the wa…

You have only very vague understanding of how our government works. First, they will not contract this to some startup or anything, but instead the company that does the periscope will do it. Then there are reams of regulations to follow, an everything the contractor does will be the most expensive option available because they charge percentage of “cost”, and the higher the cost, the more money they make. I would be…

Military procurement is indeed not the most perfect process ever invented, but it's not quite the insane caricature this and other comments make it out to be.

The costs-plus accounting scheme is meant to save money. It can just as well be described as "the manufacturer charges the costs plus a fixed (single-digit) percentage of costs. This limits the contractor's margins to the agreed-upon percentage."

And of course the contractors' accounting is routinely scrutinised and all costs need justification.

Remember the famous quote from the Apollo Program: "300,000 moving parts, all supplied by the cheapest bidder". NASA procurement, especially back then, was closely modelled on the military–and the contractors were largely the same as well.

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