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W3C abandons consensus, standardizes DRM, EFF resigns

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Re: W3C abandons consensus, standardizes DRM, EFF resigns

#241

Post by DCKing »

Can anybody explain to me what will change because of this decision? DRM has been very much part of the internet since 1995 when RealPlayer was released. DRM has been part of content delivery ever since then. It has not ever seem to have decreased in popularity, quite the opposite. The browsers that 99.9% of people use have already implemented this standard for years anyway. It's not obvious to me that this decision changes anything (it seems this is the status quo already) but maybe there's something I'm missing.

What's going to change from today to tomorrow because of this decision? Or is the meltdown here just people now realizing that the battle is lost, even though it was lost already a long time ago?

One thing I do understand is that this contended decision is a serious break from tradition and apparently a dick move (although I'd need to see some additional sources on that). But that doesn't seem to be the main topic of the discussion in these comments anyway.

Re: W3C abandons consensus, standardizes DRM, EFF resigns

#242

Post by mimsee »

conductr wrote: post #192
5ilv3r wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is already very difficult to distribute your own content without subjecting it to some other entity's distribution system, and soon it will be impossible. Chrome and friends will refuse to load unsigned content, and then the death of the free web will be complete.

I'm not knowledgeable enough to fully disagree. However, I do not feel it is the browsers job to ignore a potentially useful technology (albeit for some evil media companies) because you have a distribution/marketing problem with your own content. I think they will instead include this tech and make it usable for those who want it and continue supporting non-DRM media for those who don't want it. They're not going to…

> They're not going to block your ability to share your content without DRM.

Of course not. Then they would block all of YouTube, Twitch, Vimeo along with all other video sharing platforms, not to mention adult ones.

It would hit home too hard to require DRM be installed right away. But on the long run?

Re: W3C abandons consensus, standardizes DRM, EFF resigns

#243

Post by tdy721 »

bhhaskin wrote: post #33

We are allowing large corporations to dictate and push the web toward a closed system. A future where there has to be an App for that, and if you don't keep your head down you will be censored and cutoff from the rest of the online world.

If you want the masses to care, the masses will have to lose first. They (not hackers) don't get it, and it's inconceivable that they ever will... Until they notice the closed system.

Is there even a war taking place? Battles are often forgotten.

Yes, we (the hackers) allowed this to happen. We need to think about it now. I feel like the YOU in your comment is slightly misaddressed. What can WE do about it?

jus' trolling the good guys...

Re: W3C abandons consensus, standardizes DRM, EFF resigns

#244

Post by jamesgeck0 »

throwaway613834 wrote: post #144
horsawlarway wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not really. If it's available to view, it's available. Full stop. There's no way around that. You can't magically change the universe so that content that's viewed can't be captured. It HAS to be converted to analog somewhere. That signal can always be captured and converted back to a digital form that's no longer embedded with DRM. Best case: you make it marginally more difficult for a mom&pop computer user to copy…

>> It could be easy to view but hard to save and distribute. Why can't it? > Not really. If it's available to view, it's available. Full stop. Best case: you make it marginally more difficult for a mom&pop computer user to copy your content. Anyone with a lick of understanding and 100 dollars to buy some hardware will be able to get it without any problem. You literally just agreed with my point though.

Hard to save and distribute only lasts until one party figures out how to get the content in an unencumbered format. Even if it was hard/expensive for them to do so, they can distribute it to the world easily.

Re: W3C abandons consensus, standardizes DRM, EFF resigns

#245

Post by Crespyl »

rimliu wrote: post #185
syshum wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Umm that is what is happening WITH the standard I still can not believe the number of people that do not understand what EME is EME enabled Properiertary Plugins, it gives control over the web to MS, Google, and Adobe. Full Stop. They will control everything. Widevine, Adobe CDM, and MS PlayReady. Those are your proprietary EME plugins that everyone must use now Welcome to the non-open Web Thanks Tim berners-lee, goo…

There was a bunch of proprietary plugins before EME was even on the horizon.

And we were finally killing them off with the death of Flash, Java Plug-In, and Silverlight, and the adoption of HTML5.

Re: W3C abandons consensus, standardizes DRM, EFF resigns

#246

Post by pdimitar »

It's time to abandon the major web standards and start devising our own infrastructure. Better stateless protocol, end-to-end encryption on every connection -- no exceptions! -- decentralized encrypted vaults of cached assets (where every user donates a few or few hundred gigabytes of disk space to participiate -- effectively becoming a node in a decentralized CDN).

We've left the corporations run wild for far too long. They've been stupid, slow and it took them A LONG TIME to catch up. And eventually they did. All the while all of us did absolutely nothing. At least myself.

^ All of that is an idealistic revolutionist talk, I am aware. Had I had the free time and reserve capital however, I'd be dead-serious about starting such an effort.

Re: W3C abandons consensus, standardizes DRM, EFF resigns

#247

Post by dannyobrien »

sgift wrote: post #202
crabasa wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The W3C is not the web. Look no further than the good work the WHATWG did to move the web forward while the W3C & Microsoft were holding the web back in the early 2000's.

> Look no further than the good work the WHATWG did And who was WHATWG? Oh right, exactly the same companies that now voted for DRM as W3C standard. And why could they do WHATWG? Because they are the vendors of the majority browsers.

WHATWG did not include EME in the WHATWG HTML living standard, and supported EFF's proposal to protect security researchers: https://blog.whatwg.org/drm-and-web-security

Ian Hickson also came out strongly against DRM when this whole debate started: https://plus.google.com/+IanHickson/posts/iPmatxBYuj2

Re: W3C abandons consensus, standardizes DRM, EFF resigns

#248

Post by [deleted] »

wolfgke wrote: post #201
thephyber wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Flash and Silverlight plugins have been used by Netflix/Hulu on desktop browsers. I highly doubt nobody you know has installed them. It's much more likely they simply don't tell you they did or it never came up in conversation.

> Flash and Silverlight plugins have been used by Netflix/Hulu on desktop browsers. > I highly doubt nobody you know has installed them Netflix (let alone Hulu) is not as popular in Germany as it is in the USA.

[deleted]

Re: W3C abandons consensus, standardizes DRM, EFF resigns

#249

Post by tdy721 »

movedx wrote: post #184
pdonis wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's important is not what software exists somewhere where somebody could theoretically download and use it, but what software actually gets used. Most users don't even know what open source software is, much less where to find any; they use what comes with either Windows or OS X or their smartphone. Also, your software can be as open source as you like, but if it can't interoperate with the rest of the Internet, i…

> Most users don't even know what open source software is, much less where to find any; they use what comes with either Windows or OS X or their smartphone. This is an educational issue at the social level. The technology is still available.

Exactly, I don't want a password for my online banking, I actually despise the fact that my bank would ever even ask for one. I want a bank where I can deliver an SSH key.

The tech is here. It's been here all along.

Re: W3C abandons consensus, standardizes DRM, EFF resigns

#250

Post by untog »

wolfgke wrote: post #219
riquito wrote: post #212

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Mozilla ended up accepting EME in 2014, because otherwise it would have become "the browser where you cannot see videos" https://hacks.mozilla.org/2014/05/reconciling-mozillas-missi... "We have come to the point where Mozilla not implementing the W3C EME specification means that Firefox users have to switch to other browsers to watch content restricted by DRM."

> Mozilla ended up accepting EME in 2014, because otherwise it would have become "the browser where you cannot see videos" Rather: "the browser where you cannot see DRM-infected video" - which is an active protection of the user against malware.

...and which no-one will download.

To be clear: if DRM is not implemented in browsers, Netflix and the like will just make native apps, which are far larger vectors of malware attack than the locked down EME standard is.

I'm not saying this is a good thing, but "people should just not watch DRMed video" is not an actual answer to the problem at hand.

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