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On React and WordPress

ma.tt

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Re: On React and WordPress

#71

Post by markyuckerberg »

skrebbel wrote: post #68

Note that WordPress is ditching React not because they believe there's any problem with React's license and patent grant, but because they think their users will be confused and angry . In other words, the baseless and meritless outcry about a perfectly OK patent grant caused this, not the patent grant itself. The subject became taboo, like female nipples in America, and WordPress doesn't want anything to do with the…

>> users will be confused and angry

What an ironic statement, considering that that combination can be lethal to a company.

Besides, have you ever heard anyone say why they prefer to use Facebook even when they are aware that it is tracking their every move? Usually the answer is "convenience". By the same token, not getting confused or angry is also a great convenience to the user. Very few Wordpress users actually care about the baselessness or meritlessness of using one JavaScript library over another. They just want Wordpress to work.

Re: On React and WordPress

#72

Post by ellyagg »

ryanswapp wrote: post #3
ljoshua wrote: post #2

It's too bad that this particular point has become an issue with so many good open source projects. I still think that the risk, even for startups considering acquisition exits, is low (see this great post from a patent/IP attorney [1]), but the fact that it's enough to cause players like the ASF and WordPress to move away from it just means fewer players and less innovation in the ecosystem. IANAL, but I wish the la…

I agree that the risk of running into legal trouble with Facebook is pretty low for many companies. However, that doesn't make it feel any less dirty. It would be nice if the lawyers at Facebook would take a chill pill on this one but that will never happen. It will be interesting to see where OSS projects from Facebook go moving forward given that the noise surrounding their patent clause seems to get louder and lou…

> pretty low for many companies

C'mon. It's not just pretty low for many companies. It's extremely low for almost all companies. Automattic found it extremely low risk for themselves.

If it's not extremely low for almost all companies, then you expect Facebook to initiate patent claims. How soon do you expect to hear that Facebook played offense on them? How many companies do you expect to hear that Facebook threatened or filed against?

Re: On React and WordPress

#73

Post by dilatorily »

samastur wrote: post #66
morgante wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You lose the patent grant, which applies to all Facebook open source projects (not just React), so they can use all patents they own as part of a defensive portfolio. If initiating a patent war with Facebook is a foreseeable business outcome for you, then you probably shouldn't use React. I remain convinced that logic applies to only a tiny minority of companies.

What happens if you are not the one who initiated the patent war? My reading of the license is that you lose Facebook patent grant even if your lawsuit was a response to Facebook's. I am not a fan of (software) patents, but license restrictions are not limited to them either. So what is your recourse if Facebook decides to infringe yours? Assuming this is true (IANAL), would you still feel as comfortable advising com…

IANAL, but you do not lose the patent grant if your lawsuit is in response to Facebook's. https://github.com/facebook/react/blob/master/PATENTS#L21-L2...

Re: On React and WordPress

#75

Post by guelo »

tdb7893 wrote: post #51
morgante wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Personally, I have a hard time imagining that any Facebook patents you use with React wouldn't also apply to Preact. Then again, I think this whole patents issue is mostly FUD. The number of companies who have to reasonably consider suing Facebook for patent infringement is small and they know who they are.

I feel like there is practical worth in drawing a line in the sand, though. If all open source libraries had this then using open source would essentially mean you can't sue the big corporations (or having to go through some very lengthy and very expensive expensive engineering if you do). I think that outcome is bad for the industry as a whole and bad for open source in general and it's better to fight now than have…

Why would suing Facebook be good for anybody? Even if you're a VC backed startup and Facebook steals your patent it still would be a bad idea to sue Facebook. During this whole thing I've been agog because I can't figure out what the problem is. Patent lawsuits are bad!

Re: On React and WordPress

#76

Post by matthewmacleod »

invaliduser wrote: post #56
morgante wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Personally, I have a hard time imagining that any Facebook patents you use with React wouldn't also apply to Preact. Then again, I think this whole patents issue is mostly FUD. The number of companies who have to reasonably consider suing Facebook for patent infringement is small and they know who they are.

The facebook patent clause states that you lose the licence rights to use react if you sue facebook against any patent infringement (for patents you own). There is nothing in that saying that they have patents on react, and if they have patent covering, it very likely covers very much more than just react (because of the generic way patents are filed). «The license granted hereunder will terminate, automatically and…

No, this is wrong. You do not (and cannot, since it’s BSD) have your license to use React revoked. You do have your additional patent grant revoked - that is, if you sue Facebook for patent infringement, you will lose the right that they previously granted to use any and all patents covering React.

If we assume that any patents covering React also cover the alternatives such as Preact, the nothing is gained by avoiding React.

Re: On React and WordPress

#77

Post by Yizahi »

morgante wrote: post #42
ballenf wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But that's irrelevant here. FB is likely getting sued by patent holding companies who aren't reliant on or using React. So the patent clause doesn't really get FB anything against patent trolls. It does get them leverage against legitimate patent holders. There have been reports of companies having to pay in some roundabout unspecified way royalties to FB for React as part of a large patent licensing deal. I'm somewh…

The patent clause isn't designed to give Facebook leverage. It's designed to grant patents unless you sue them. Even though patent trolls don't use React, Facebook wants to ensure that they don't grant patent licenses to patent trolls. > There have been reports of companies having to pay in some roundabout unspecified way royalties to FB for React as part of a large patent licensing deal. If you can provide any direc…

But Facebook can infringe on your patents if they know you have a heavy dependency on React. They won't sue, just infringe. And you won't be able to sue them with zero losses, you will lose at minimum React.

Re: On React and WordPress

#78

Post by [deleted] »

TheCoreh wrote: post #67
fiatjaf wrote: post #55

I don't understand why can't you just replace all React with Preact or Inferno-compat. That would take 2 minutes, wouldn't it?

If Facebook has patents covering React, these probably also cover Preact, so you'd actually be in a worse position: Potentially violating patents and not having any sort of grand.

[deleted]

Re: On React and WordPress

#79

Post by fetbaffe »

myhf wrote: post #29
morgante wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Personally, I have a hard time imagining that any Facebook patents you use with React wouldn't also apply to Preact. Then again, I think this whole patents issue is mostly FUD. The number of companies who have to reasonably consider suing Facebook for patent infringement is small and they know who they are.

If you have nothing to hide from Facebook, you have nothing to fear from Facebook.

How do you know that?
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