Earlier quoted context omitted.
It's less about base pay, and more about limits to working time, overtime and protection from exploitation.
If you don't like your job then switch it, there's plenty of software companies that don't do that. Generally I've seen that the more bleeding edge you're working on then the more overwork you get. If you want to sacrifice working on the bleeding edge for a steady pay and steady working hours you can have that all across the country.
Organizers have unionized 5,000 contract workers at Apple, Facebook, Yahoo
301–310 of 450 posts
Re: Organizers have unionized 5,000 contract workers at Apple, Facebook, Yahoo
#302No its not. This is a union fluff piece. The reality is these are contractors who will get dropped as soon as it makes sense. Thats why you hire these services as contractors. I think the real test here will be how long till the union pushes facebook too far and they are just dropped. I have never seen a union that could actually compete with non-union shops unless there was a legal force preventing the competition.
"I have never seen a union that could actually compete with non-union shops unless there was a legal force preventing the competition." You say "compete", but I'll bet these people would say "earn a living wage."
If the labor you are selling to somebody isn't priced high enough to pay your bills, you need to ask yourself: 1) Is someone else willing to pay me more for this labor? 2) If yes, go work for them. If no, then the market has spoken, and the price for your form of labor is too low and you should find a new skill or move to a location where your labor's price point is more in line with the cost of living. 3) Paying people more than their labor is worth means that the difference has to be taken from others. 4) The energy being wasted on bitching and complaining and picketing would be better spent finding a new trade. There is a shortage of people in this country that can fix physical things with their hands. There is a surplus of people who can spoon food onto plates, because ANYBODY can do it.
I have empathy and compassion for people scraping by, but I also know that handouts undermine people's self-confidence and pride. Paying these folks more than they are worth just hastens the automation of their jobs.
Re: Organizers have unionized 5,000 contract workers at Apple, Facebook, Yahoo
#303No its not. This is a union fluff piece. The reality is these are contractors who will get dropped as soon as it makes sense. Thats why you hire these services as contractors. I think the real test here will be how long till the union pushes facebook too far and they are just dropped. I have never seen a union that could actually compete with non-union shops unless there was a legal force preventing the competition.
Which is exactly why we have to make it easier for people to form and join unions everywhere.
Re: Organizers have unionized 5,000 contract workers at Apple, Facebook, Yahoo
#304Earlier quoted context omitted.
> I hope not. I've seen enough HNers talk about how they want immigrants out of the industry, and about how we should restrict the supply of programmers to keep pay high Incidentally, this is exactly what labor unions have spent their time doing for much of their history as incorporated organizations. Labor unions fought (successfully) to exclude immigrants from certain regions from immigrating, and even fought to re…
They don't like to talk about it because it's entirely off the subject, here. It is extremely intellectually dishonest for you to say that, implying that a tech union would do such a thing.
Every time the topic of immigration and visas come up, the comments are flooded with racist comments and talk about how we need to make it harder for companies to hire people on H1Bs from Asia. The more overtly racist comments get flagged and removed, but the rest still stay.
If anything, it's intellectually dishonest of you to suggest that these same people wouldn't actually fight to do that, given that's literally what they say they want to do.
Re: Organizers have unionized 5,000 contract workers at Apple, Facebook, Yahoo
#305No its not. This is a union fluff piece. The reality is these are contractors who will get dropped as soon as it makes sense. Thats why you hire these services as contractors. I think the real test here will be how long till the union pushes facebook too far and they are just dropped. I have never seen a union that could actually compete with non-union shops unless there was a legal force preventing the competition.
> The reality is these are contractors who will get dropped as soon as it makes sense. Thats why you hire these services as contractors. I think the real test here will be how long till the union pushes facebook too far and they are just dropped. That overlooks the whole point of unions, which is to give people power over their work lives and prevent situations like the one you describe. Perhaps the union won't succe…
Everyone is not equal in value despite being equal in seniority or experience.
A first year teacher might be amazing, but thanks to unions her wage is codified based on her position in the pecking order and not her merits.
Re: Organizers have unionized 5,000 contract workers at Apple, Facebook, Yahoo
#306Earlier quoted context omitted.
I would hope not. I see tech-workers as professionals not as laborers. I think the great battle to be fought by tech workers is to stop having them treated as common laborers that perform some kind of rote process. Some times we call software development engineering, and if thats the case I would press anyone to show me an engineering discipline that parallels software engineering in terms of working conditions and r…
Actors and writers are not laborers either and they're also competing against the "crapification" of their industry driven by execs trying to undercut them (e.g. reality TV).
Why aren't they?
Re: Organizers have unionized 5,000 contract workers at Apple, Facebook, Yahoo
#307Collective bargaining is OK and not usually conflictual outside down cycles or downsizing legacy industries. The conflict narratives appeal far more to general consumers. Working class hero is huge in American history for both good and ill.
Where many unions go bad is running interference on liability, incompetency or even criminality. That is not unique to unions but suffers embarrassing large scale instances (cops? teachers? auto workers who stole tools).
These are tough things to get right. The battles for enough and fair (predictable is a giant issue for service workers) overlap with battles that should never be waged and mostly lose.
Re: Organizers have unionized 5,000 contract workers at Apple, Facebook, Yahoo
#308No its not. This is a union fluff piece. The reality is these are contractors who will get dropped as soon as it makes sense. Thats why you hire these services as contractors. I think the real test here will be how long till the union pushes facebook too far and they are just dropped. I have never seen a union that could actually compete with non-union shops unless there was a legal force preventing the competition.
"The reality is these are contractors who will get dropped as soon as it makes sense. " This is exactly the kind of abuse Unions seek to end. Workers cannot simply be fired. The collective bargaining contract signed between the tech companies and Unions defines grounds for termination.
Are you trying to suggest that there is something inherently abusive about contracting? What if I don't want a full time gig?
Re: Organizers have unionized 5,000 contract workers at Apple, Facebook, Yahoo
#309Earlier quoted context omitted.
"The reality is these are contractors who will get dropped as soon as it makes sense. " This is exactly the kind of abuse Unions seek to end. Workers cannot simply be fired. The collective bargaining contract signed between the tech companies and Unions defines grounds for termination.
Why is that abusive? If you want more secure work, don't offer your services as a contractor. Are you trying to suggest that there is something inherently abusive about contracting? What if I don't want a full time gig?
Re: Organizers have unionized 5,000 contract workers at Apple, Facebook, Yahoo
#310Earlier quoted context omitted.
"There is no reason why a union has to do anything in particular at all if you don't want it to." Yes there it. If a union takes over the workforce of your company, now you have to follow the union rules. If unions were just opt in, them yes you'd be right. But unions are NOT opt in for many states. One you are a union shop, you are screwed if you disagree with the union.
"Yes there it. If a union takes over the workforce of your company, now you have to follow the union rules." Yes. Which they, as the union, would decide on.
What if instead, I want to negotiate my own work contract?
If a union comes in, I have no option. I do not want other people voting on my contract.
This is why I will always fight the establishment of a union in the tech industry. I do not want to be governed by the union rules, so I am not going to allow this stuff to be established in the first place.