Headline is a little misleading. We started LTS, our legal tech company, with the goal of helping lawyers provide legal services to startups in a more speedy, transparent and price predicable way. To us, that means building tools that lawyers use, and not creating the Uber of lawyers or a master AI that replaces lawyers (I don't think the latter is possible right now). Atrium, the law firm founded by two of my LTS co…
How do you tend to compete with the likes of established players such as westlaw that have been around for so long? I can possibly imagine a startup which helps big company lawyers, as they tend to be more bullish on new tech, but when it comes to the legal industry I don't know. It's not that I don't believe you guys have a fighting chance at having an impact in the legal technology space, the problem is that the le…
Startup wants to build tools for lawyers to speed up legal services
81–90 of 109 posts
Re: Startup wants to build tools for lawyers to speed up legal services
#82If this is an example of scratching one's own itch, Justin Kan needs new hobbies. Consider how much you have to interact with lawyers in order to want to automate them. "I’ve raised money. I’ve done a merger. I’ve been sued. And yet every time, bills would pile up and I had no clear idea what I was paying for. In Silicon Valley, we want everything to be transparent." From the sound of the story, their competition is…
What is Nolo Press?
Re: Startup wants to build tools for lawyers to speed up legal services
#83A number of possible explanations, but the most prevalent I’ve encountered:
• Differences between the variety of ways a given attorney goes about practicing create inherent barriers to a one size fits all B2B software solution. Attorney personas vary wildly based on factors such as practice area, firm size, region, jurisdiction, client demographics, the list goes on and on. This makes it very difficult to build out products that scale rapidly industry-wide. While this sort of end user diversity isn’t inherently unique to the legal industry, it’s probably where its most entrenched, dictated by regulation and long-standing custom, etc etc — all things very startup/entrepreneurial unfriendly.
• Even accounting for legitimate industry-based reasons, there’s a second very real, risk-averse layer: both legal education and practice are very hierarchical, such that aspiring attorneys are being ranked and learning to guard their interests well before they ever begin practice. Once they do, protecting partnerships, colleagues (intra-firm / former pals), profits, rolodexes, business processes, etc is well entrenched in a given attorney’s MO. News writeups usually include a bit about how the Great Recession started to prompt innovation, which it did, but it also created a margins race that further drives attorneys to protect their book of business and profits, further entrenching mindsets which reject disruption, consciously or not.
Regardless of whether you buy these reasons or have your own, the nuance quickly exceeds what captures readers in the mainstream or tech press. Yet the rise of automation in other industries does justify coverage of how those trends would be affecting the law, and the not-uncommon “Let’s kill all the lawyers!” Shakespearean mentality fuels the fire. The result? Every new startup aiming to disrupt the law gets some pretty gloating coverage…and then they need to start acquiring users and scaling. In fairness, that’s what real startups have to do, so not all sanity goes out the window.
Post-2008, the real driver for innovation has been client demand, so Atrium’s approach makes sense there. Also, shoutouts to A2J nonprofits, they’re doing really meaningful work for clients that need it most (albeit with their own set of complexities that aren’t inherently tuned to startup culture)
Obligatory 1: Attorney, but IANYL. Work in the industry, currently building software for firm/legal services ops and biz processes. Previously involved in A2J efforts. Views above are my own, not those of my employer or previous initiatives.
Obligatory 2: If you’re the type with a respect for the industry, but a drive to use tech, product, and entrepreneurial methodologies to break through these types of barriers — we’re hiring! Engineers, product, QA, project, or attorneys that have some meaningful experience in both worlds: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15148885
Re: Startup wants to build tools for lawyers to speed up legal services
#84There's a big unanswered question in the article. It says that the company is a law firm, that only two of the four co-founders are lawyers, and that it raised $10.5 million dollars, presumably on an equity basis. However, law firms are not permitted to have non-lawyers as owners. It is considered unethical as it would mean decisions would be made by people that aren't obligated to follow the cannons of legal ethics…
A law firm is typically an LLP structure. LLPs are common even outside law firms and there is nothing I'm aware of that says only accredited/bar member lawyers can be the owners of these LLPs. Where are you getting that info from?
Some non-U.S. Jurisdictions have similar rules but many don't. For example, there are publicly traded law firms in the UK.
Re: Startup wants to build tools for lawyers to speed up legal services
#85Headline is a little misleading. We started LTS, our legal tech company, with the goal of helping lawyers provide legal services to startups in a more speedy, transparent and price predicable way. To us, that means building tools that lawyers use, and not creating the Uber of lawyers or a master AI that replaces lawyers (I don't think the latter is possible right now). Atrium, the law firm founded by two of my LTS co…
Re: Startup wants to build tools for lawyers to speed up legal services
#86Her objective, and the reason she's on staff, is to get stuff done efficiently and cost-effectively.
When she writes a sales contract she tries to write it so everybody can say, "that's fair" and sign it, rather than send it off to some slow and expensive review. Sales people love that.
Same for smaller stuff like NDAs.
She did that stuff for some of my entrepreneurial ventures. Big win.
Litigation: she looks beyond the white-shoe gold-tie-clip downtown firms to handle that kind of stuff.
Escrow for code: If some source code needs to be held in escrow, she says, "look, I'm an officer of the court, answerable to more than just my boss. Suppose you put the thumb drive or DVD-R in an sealed envelope. I'll put it in another sealed envelope and hold it in my locked file cabinet." Many parties say "good idea!" because escrow services aren't cheap.
She has a rubber stamp that says, in some kind of legalese, "We don't pay unitemized bills. Please provide more detail and send this bill again." That can save a bundle of money. The concealed "bonuses" for partners sometimes evaporate from the bills. The "stamp" works well; the billing firm has no idea whether it's legal or A/P refusing the bill, so they just provide more detail.
Financings: not much leverage there. They still have to hire outside counsel with expensive lawyers and paralegals who can bench-press massive tomes of dense legalese.
I suspect a software service that inspected and tracked legal bills payable by tech companies might pay for itself pretty quickly. (Ingest pdfs? Look for keywords and numbers?)
Re: Startup wants to build tools for lawyers to speed up legal services
#87Headline is a little misleading. We started LTS, our legal tech company, with the goal of helping lawyers provide legal services to startups in a more speedy, transparent and price predicable way. To us, that means building tools that lawyers use, and not creating the Uber of lawyers or a master AI that replaces lawyers (I don't think the latter is possible right now). Atrium, the law firm founded by two of my LTS co…
I don't mean to pile on but I'd be interested as a lawyer dabbling in tech. In the last two years I co-founded startup with a patent pending legal pricing software called Statutory Litigation Automated Pricing, S.L.A.P. (acquired) and this past year I built a prototype "self-serve legal kiosk" and kiosk software Demoed at Walmart HQ for use in their stores with The Law Store (thelawstore.com) I don't think that makes…
Re: Startup wants to build tools for lawyers to speed up legal services
#88Earlier quoted context omitted.
AtriumLTS appears to be working on tools for lawyers, however; wouldn't you agree that's a much easier sell for regulators? As opposed to a LegalZoom or even Clerky model? Now, if they're trying to gin up some "big data" tools, and using Atrium-client data as inputs for those tools, that raises really sticky questions. There would need to be a whole lot of education and disclosure about to clients about AtriumLTS's a…
In my experience, the regulators aren't really being sold in the first place. They don't have the resources or willingness to stir up a hornet's nest if they can get away with it. Normally the key battle is in determining if the work in question falls within the definition of the practice of law. The more rote and mindless the work is (say, bates numbering a discovery compilation), the safer it is, but most of the lo…
I am just wondering where this next wave really is going going
Re: Startup wants to build tools for lawyers to speed up legal services
#89Earlier quoted context omitted.
We raised $10.5M for our legal technology company, Legal Technology Services (LTS). My cofounders of LTS who are lawyers, Augie Rakow and BeBe Chueh, started a firm called Atrium LLP. Atrium LLP is LTS' first customer, and allows us to reduce our development cycle on building that software. I am not a partner at Atrium LLP (and am not a lawyer, nor do I give legal advice). It's a complex story that has been a little…
Justin, with respect, there are many organizations working within the structure that you've put together. All of them get by on the basis that they argue the scope of what software does is not the practice of law. My concern is that in order to secure regulator approval for this position most of these legal support contractors substantially misrepresent the scope and depth of the work they provide. Do you have any pl…
Not saying that what this gent is doing is even remotely as bad (or even really bad at all), but seems they are employing the same mechanism to skirt the regulations a bit.
Re: Startup wants to build tools for lawyers to speed up legal services
#90Earlier quoted context omitted.
AtriumLTS appears to be working on tools for lawyers, however; wouldn't you agree that's a much easier sell for regulators? As opposed to a LegalZoom or even Clerky model? Now, if they're trying to gin up some "big data" tools, and using Atrium-client data as inputs for those tools, that raises really sticky questions. There would need to be a whole lot of education and disclosure about to clients about AtriumLTS's a…
In my experience, the regulators aren't really being sold in the first place. They don't have the resources or willingness to stir up a hornet's nest if they can get away with it. Normally the key battle is in determining if the work in question falls within the definition of the practice of law. The more rote and mindless the work is (say, bates numbering a discovery compilation), the safer it is, but most of the lo…
So, for our friends at Atrium, whether or not their systems 'practice law,' as long as that product is 'given' by the client's attorney... doesn't that look like it meets the UPL hurdle? (At least at this oversimplified level, IANYL)