Organizers have unionized 5,000 contract workers at Apple, Facebook, Yahoo • Hacker News Board

Re: Organizers have unionized 5,000 contract workers at Apple, Facebook, Yahoo

#141

Post by CryptoPunk » Thu, Sep 14, 2017, 5:15 PM UTC

kevmo wrote: post #30

If there is one thing I've learned from two decades of reading about labor history, it's: Every gain labor has ever made has been taken. Every gain the working class (i.e. the overwhelming majority of people) has achieved has come from organizing their majority of low-power workers and then standing strongly against the empowered minority at the top. Good for these people. They are essentially moving our society forw…

Any wage gains that are derived by unionisation are zero sum. They are economic rent extracted by reducing the competitiveness of labour markets, and advantaging unionized workers working for big employers at the expense of those without such jobs.

In the long run, the reduced profit margins caused by wages that are artificially high (above the rate that would be established by the free market) results in less investment (profits == compensation for investors), which means a slower rate of economic and wage growth.

>>If there is one thing I've learned from two decades of reading about labor history,

I encourage you to read a diverse set of perspectives. I'd argue that unions have more power than employers in being able to shape the historical narrative.

Re: Organizers have unionized 5,000 contract workers at Apple, Facebook, Yahoo

#142

Post by tptacek » Thu, Sep 14, 2017, 5:17 PM UTC

chimeracoder wrote: post #140

tptacek wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you would stop citing the NLRA and constrain your comments to just unions, we wouldn't have an argument. But you keep implying that the NLRA means unions, and in fact the NLRA is the law that prevents companies from firing their employees for any kind of organizing. It does other things, but you don't have to engage with those other things to get the protection I'm talking about. So when you cite the NLRA as a bad…

> So when you cite the NLRA as a bad thing, you are literally making the argument I just suggested you were. I never once cited the NLRA as "a bad thing".

It's misleading to suggest that professional associations require the NLRA to operate.

Without the NLRA, employees can simply be fired for attempting to organize.

Sorry, I should have been clearer earlier.

Re: Organizers have unionized 5,000 contract workers at Apple, Facebook, Yahoo

#143

Post by otalp » Thu, Sep 14, 2017, 5:21 PM UTC

crimsonalucard wrote: post #50

What do you guys think of software engineers forming a union where we have a guaranteed base pay but each of us can still negotiate higher if we wanted?

It's less about base pay, and more about limits to working time, overtime and protection from exploitation.

Re: Organizers have unionized 5,000 contract workers at Apple, Facebook, Yahoo

#144

Post by chimeracoder » Thu, Sep 14, 2017, 5:22 PM UTC

mseebach wrote: post #129

tptacek wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have effectively no college, and went to work right after high school. Whatever labor organization tech workers come up with doesn't have to be the AFL-CIO and it doesn't have to be the AMA. It can just take the best attributes from all those organizations. Or it can start more modestly! Maybe tech workers will just come up with two or three things --- say, late exercise on options and better IP clauses --- and jus…

So that's a nice optimistic vision, and if I had any faith we could keep it to that, I'd be for it. My vision includes scope creep and lots of greedy ambitious good-at-politics less-good-at-actually-doing-work types grabbing the show once it's successful. Most organisations meaningfully described as unions has a non-trivial element of excluding people from the trade in one way or another. I will never be a part of an…

> Most organisations meaningfully described as unions has a non-trivial element of excluding people from the trade in one way or another. I will never be a part of any organisation that will prevent any person from (trying to) make a living as a programmer in whatever way.

The problem is that, once an industry unionizes, you don't really have a choice.

The process of decertification is basically a catch-22: unions are actually allowed to terminate membership of employees who advocate decertification, which makes it impossible to organize enough support for decertification from current members without risking losing your membership.

And that's all assuming that you actually hold the majority view. It's quite possible that the majority of your coworkers want to (for example) ban Asian workers from obtaining work visas. If that's the case, you can't really do anything to stop your union from supporting it either.

That example isn't hypothetical, by the way. Banning immigration from Asia was one of the first major victories of the American Federation of Labor.

Re: Organizers have unionized 5,000 contract workers at Apple, Facebook, Yahoo

#145

Post by cinquemb » Thu, Sep 14, 2017, 5:28 PM UTC

crdoconnor wrote: post #121

dkhenry wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your comment shows the real divide on unionization and its not about someone's political ideology, its fundamentally about how they view the profession. If like you said programmers should unionize before the army of $12/hour programmers arrives then what you are claiming is that software development could be done by someone who was trained and willing to accept $12 per hour. Essentially you are making the claim they…

If the PhDs and postdocs - who are not performing "common labor" either - can get totally screwed (and they are), so can you.

But the kiss the PI's ass while playing the shit papers out/ strip for grant money game is pretty common and doesn't take much competence, outside of regurgitating the current pet theories of a field waiting to die out with the next funeral… and that's after one has most likely loaded up on a shit tonne of debt… or on visa of some sort…[0]

[0] Experience working/consulting for various labs

Re: Organizers have unionized 5,000 contract workers at Apple, Facebook, Yahoo

#146

Post by gwbas1c » Thu, Sep 14, 2017, 5:29 PM UTC

frgtpsswrdlame wrote: post #2

Question for the HN crowd: do you think tech-workers will begin to unionize? It seems to me that (in general) they've got such a nice position in the economy there's probably a bit of an "if it ain't broke don't fix it" mentality. Is that correct?

We need professional organizations and licensing processes. Unions are for common laborers.

The difference is that professionals bargain individually, because the jobs we do are specialized. Common laborers need unions for collective bargaining; because their work isn't specialized.

So think of it more like: A tech company would only hire a licensed software engineer. The licensing process is mostly the tedium part of determining competency, so that the job interview is about mutual interest and personality fit. It then opens up more room for individual negotiation, because there is less of a competency risk when hiring.

Unions and collective bargaining is for when there is very little competency risk when hiring.

Re: Organizers have unionized 5,000 contract workers at Apple, Facebook, Yahoo

#147

Post by chimeracoder » Thu, Sep 14, 2017, 5:31 PM UTC

CryptoPunk wrote: post #141

kevmo wrote: post #30

If there is one thing I've learned from two decades of reading about labor history, it's: Every gain labor has ever made has been taken. Every gain the working class (i.e. the overwhelming majority of people) has achieved has come from organizing their majority of low-power workers and then standing strongly against the empowered minority at the top. Good for these people. They are essentially moving our society forw…

Any wage gains that are derived by unionisation are zero sum. They are economic rent extracted by reducing the competitiveness of labour markets, and advantaging unionized workers working for big employers at the expense of those without such jobs. In the long run, the reduced profit margins caused by wages that are artificially high (above the rate that would be established by the free market) results in less invest…

> I'd argue that unions have more power than employers in being able to shape the historical narrative.

I'm not going to compare their power to employers' power, but it is definitely true that unions have been able to write their preferred version of history with labor law.

Notice how we never talk about the historical ties between labor unions and white supremacy. It's all right there in the public record - there's no denying that it happened - but it's always ignored in the public narrative.

Re: Organizers have unionized 5,000 contract workers at Apple, Facebook, Yahoo

#148

Post by jeremysalwen » Thu, Sep 14, 2017, 5:32 PM UTC

CryptoPunk wrote: post #141

kevmo wrote: post #30

If there is one thing I've learned from two decades of reading about labor history, it's: Every gain labor has ever made has been taken. Every gain the working class (i.e. the overwhelming majority of people) has achieved has come from organizing their majority of low-power workers and then standing strongly against the empowered minority at the top. Good for these people. They are essentially moving our society forw…

Any wage gains that are derived by unionisation are zero sum. They are economic rent extracted by reducing the competitiveness of labour markets, and advantaging unionized workers working for big employers at the expense of those without such jobs. In the long run, the reduced profit margins caused by wages that are artificially high (above the rate that would be established by the free market) results in less invest…

Why do you assume that the current wages are the "natural" rate established by the "free market"? Don't we have evidence that employers are already abusing their market power to extract rents? (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-Tech_Employee_Antitrust_L... for an example close to home)

In fact, corporate profits are record-high, and wages have been stagnant for decades, suggesting very strongly that the "unnatural" market power that is keeping wages at "artificial" levels is in fact that of employers.

Re: Organizers have unionized 5,000 contract workers at Apple, Facebook, Yahoo

#149

Post by tim333 » Thu, Sep 14, 2017, 5:32 PM UTC

kevmo wrote: post #30

If there is one thing I've learned from two decades of reading about labor history, it's: Every gain labor has ever made has been taken. Every gain the working class (i.e. the overwhelming majority of people) has achieved has come from organizing their majority of low-power workers and then standing strongly against the empowered minority at the top. Good for these people. They are essentially moving our society forw…

>Every gain the working class ... has achieved has come from organizing

In the absence of organizing, wages and conditions can get bid up if there is a shortage of workers for the jobs available. Maybe not so much for the US working class recently but SV programmers, Chinese factory workers and the like have seen their wages go up a lot.

Re: Organizers have unionized 5,000 contract workers at Apple, Facebook, Yahoo

#150

Post by s73ver_ » Thu, Sep 14, 2017, 5:50 PM UTC

wyldfire wrote: post #69

tptacek wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Since the capital and ownership sectors of our economy are all trained to operate businesses rationally and to not leave value on the table, it seems pretty clear that anything that labor doesn't take will be traded away. To me, in that light, neither the "depredations" of owners and investors nor the "coercion" of labor unions is really a problem; it's just the natural give and take of the market at work. The real p…

> The real problem is the late 20th century stigma labor organization has acquired. I think the stigma is well-deserved. Indeed they are rife with corruption and often create very odd incentives. Unfortunately unions suffer the same fate as other "invisible" benefits: everyone takes them for granted and doesn't recognize their value. People focus on the drawbacks and it's much easier to convince them that we're all b…

I don't. I don't see organized labor being any more corrupt or bad than corporate management. So why is it ok for corporate leadership to do these things, but not labor?