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Organizers have unionized 5,000 contract workers at Apple, Facebook, Yahoo

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Re: Organizers have unionized 5,000 contract workers at Apple, Facebook, Yahoo

#61

Post by chimeracoder »

ryanworl wrote: post #6
readams wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Working in a union would be terrible. Can you imagine having to deal with seniority rules?

A union is whatever the members want it to be. Just because traditional unions operate a certain way does not mean a union for tech workers has to operate the same way.

> Just because traditional unions operate a certain way does not mean a union for tech workers has to operate the same way.

Unions have all converged on operating the same way because the NLRA is very rigid, and over the decades, they've found a stable way of operating. Other operating structures have been tried over the last century, and all have failed except the current one.

If anybody believes that a tech union under the NLRA would break this trend, especially while presumably still being affiliated with other traditional unions, then the burden would be on them to explain why the forces that drive other unions would somehow not apply to tech.

Re: Organizers have unionized 5,000 contract workers at Apple, Facebook, Yahoo

#62

Post by brightball »

spamizbad wrote: post #42
brightball wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you ever thought that programmer pay is as high as it is because of the lack of those protections? It's pretty well established that programmer interviewing is hard for businesses and when they get it wrong everybody needs to be able to part ways. The speed at which this field moved is almost entirely due to the lack of encumbrances. That includes having to pay a state licensing group to say you are professional…

> Have you ever thought that programmer pay is as high as it is because of the lack of those protections? It's not. Union members earn more than their non-union counterparts in nearly all instances. Source: https://www.bls.gov/opub/mlr/2013/04/art2full.pdf But I'd go further and say what constitutes "high" is subjective. If you look at it in terms of median household/income distribution then yes, you could certainly…

I'm not arguing that on-average union workers don't make more, only that we're in a high demand and fast-moving field with rampant innovation.

How much innovation happens in unionized fields?

How much work did Uber have to do to essentially go full on rogue to get around the system built up by taxi unions?

How much union work ends up getting either automated or outsourced to countries without union workers?

Do lost jobs count against that average pay stat?

Look at the hoops that Tesla has had to jump through just to sell cars to you directly? Those local car dealers...that's a sales union.

I mean, the National Labor Relations Board gets called in when Boeing wants to open a plant in the south east. We're not even talking off-shoring or cutting jobs.

Unions, like anything, have cyclical benefits. There are times when they make sense. There are others when they don't.

Re: Organizers have unionized 5,000 contract workers at Apple, Facebook, Yahoo

#63

Post by gok »

_jal wrote: post #57
gok wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are pretty huge differences between (say) the IEEE and the UAW. Collective bargaining, for example.

I think the GP was thinking more of the state Bars, the Federation of State Medical Boards, National Association of State Boards of Accountancy, etc. Those are not in the same category as the IEEE.

Sure, boards which look after professional certifications do have more power, especially in jurisdictions that give those certifications legal power. But those boards still don’t typically negotiate wages or organize strikes.

Re: Organizers have unionized 5,000 contract workers at Apple, Facebook, Yahoo

#64

Post by jbooth »

tptacek wrote: post #39
kevmo wrote: post #30

If there is one thing I've learned from two decades of reading about labor history, it's: Every gain labor has ever made has been taken. Every gain the working class (i.e. the overwhelming majority of people) has achieved has come from organizing their majority of low-power workers and then standing strongly against the empowered minority at the top. Good for these people. They are essentially moving our society forw…

Since the capital and ownership sectors of our economy are all trained to operate businesses rationally and to not leave value on the table, it seems pretty clear that anything that labor doesn't take will be traded away. To me, in that light, neither the "depredations" of owners and investors nor the "coercion" of labor unions is really a problem; it's just the natural give and take of the market at work. The real p…

It's not just the stigma that labor's gotten, it's the language that's infiltrated our thoughts.

Giving a generous maternity leave is "leaving value on the table". Evading taxes via the double-irish or contractor/employee loopholes is "creating shareholder value".

It's like Gordon Gekko and George Orwell collaborated.

Re: Organizers have unionized 5,000 contract workers at Apple, Facebook, Yahoo

#65

Post by mc32 »

This is a bit misleading. Union power is putting pressure on service economy companies which in turn service tech companies.

Tech workers are not unionizing -and I can't imagine they would, given their pay compared to other sectors. I could see an AMA type organization perhaps.

On the other hand, unfortunately, companies no longer staff vertically. When they can outsource their non core competencies they do. They don't want to be the IBMs and Xeroxes of yore. They want to remain nimble.

A famous example was MS's front line IT staff managing Windows clients being contractors. So they hired contractors to manage their own core product internally!!

Re: Organizers have unionized 5,000 contract workers at Apple, Facebook, Yahoo

#66

Post by _jal »

frgtpsswrdlame wrote: post #2

Question for the HN crowd: do you think tech-workers will begin to unionize? It seems to me that (in general) they've got such a nice position in the economy there's probably a bit of an "if it ain't broke don't fix it" mentality. Is that correct?

I think this would be exactly the right time for tech-workers to unionize. Which means it won't happen. US tech workers currently have it great - I think they're somewhere close to a peak of negotiating power. That's when you want to negotiate. That's also when workers think there's no point in it.

I think one thing that keeps tech engineers from unionizing is the "professional" label. Unions are iron workers, not professionals like me. I have two responses: (1) look at other professionals. Lawyers, doctors and accountants have unions, they just aren't call that. Think about it. (2) If you think your "professional" status is sticky without doing anything, take a look at programmer work conditions at overseas outsourcers. That is the future of the job if you don't do anything.

Re: Organizers have unionized 5,000 contract workers at Apple, Facebook, Yahoo

#67

Post by tptacek »

chimeracoder wrote: post #58
tptacek wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most professionals also belong to labor unions. They're just not called that; they're called professional associations.

> Most professionals also belong to labor unions. They're just not called that; they're called professional associations. There's a massive difference between a professional association and an NLRB-governed union.

What's your point? I agree that developers don't neat an equivalent to the Teamsters.

The NLRA protects any concerted effort among employees to improve workplace conditions. You don't have to be an "NLRB-governed union" to organize.

Re: Organizers have unionized 5,000 contract workers at Apple, Facebook, Yahoo

#68

Post by tptacek »

gok wrote: post #63
_jal wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the GP was thinking more of the state Bars, the Federation of State Medical Boards, National Association of State Boards of Accountancy, etc. Those are not in the same category as the IEEE.

Sure, boards which look after professional certifications do have more power, especially in jurisdictions that give those certifications legal power. But those boards still don’t typically negotiate wages or organize strikes.

What's your point? The NLRA protects your right to organize over anything, not just wages. I agree completely that industry-wide wage controls are a bad idea.

Re: Organizers have unionized 5,000 contract workers at Apple, Facebook, Yahoo

#69

Post by wyldfire »

tptacek wrote: post #39
kevmo wrote: post #30

If there is one thing I've learned from two decades of reading about labor history, it's: Every gain labor has ever made has been taken. Every gain the working class (i.e. the overwhelming majority of people) has achieved has come from organizing their majority of low-power workers and then standing strongly against the empowered minority at the top. Good for these people. They are essentially moving our society forw…

Since the capital and ownership sectors of our economy are all trained to operate businesses rationally and to not leave value on the table, it seems pretty clear that anything that labor doesn't take will be traded away. To me, in that light, neither the "depredations" of owners and investors nor the "coercion" of labor unions is really a problem; it's just the natural give and take of the market at work. The real p…

> The real problem is the late 20th century stigma labor organization has acquired.

I think the stigma is well-deserved. Indeed they are rife with corruption and often create very odd incentives.

Unfortunately unions suffer the same fate as other "invisible" benefits: everyone takes them for granted and doesn't recognize their value. People focus on the drawbacks and it's much easier to convince them that we're all better off without unions.

Re: Organizers have unionized 5,000 contract workers at Apple, Facebook, Yahoo

#70

Post by gok »

mc32 wrote: post #65

This is a bit misleading. Union power is putting pressure on service economy companies which in turn service tech companies. Tech workers are not unionizing -and I can't imagine they would, given their pay compared to other sectors. I could see an AMA type organization perhaps. On the other hand, unfortunately, companies no longer staff vertically. When they can outsource their non core competencies they do. They don…

> Tech workers are not unionizing -and I can't imagine they would, given their pay compared to other sectors.

Unions needn’t be only for the middle class. See professional sports players unions for example.

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