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Organizers have unionized 5,000 contract workers at Apple, Facebook, Yahoo

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Re: Organizers have unionized 5,000 contract workers at Apple, Facebook, Yahoo

#51
post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unfortunately, anyone willing to treat employees horribly, operates cheaper. If using trafficked chinese women were legal, the owner willing to be a psychopath will put his competition under. Capitalism is an inherently unstable system and only works with good regulation. I think a capitalist system only works as well as its regulation.

I largely agree. However, I think it is important for regulations to generally (not always) be structured on a sliding scale that is directly related to company size, i.e. the bigger the business, the more regulations it becomes subject to. Otherwise, regulations become a cudgel with which small businesses are beaten down because only the big established players can afford to comply. In today's age of regulatory capt…

I think complex, arcane regulation is a very bad sign, like spagetti code. Like code, regulation is, ideally, clear, transparent, at the lowest level of gov't. practical, and in plain language.

Re: Organizers have unionized 5,000 contract workers at Apple, Facebook, Yahoo

#52
post #7

Appears to be free and non coercive negotiation until you get to the actual coersion: "In San Francisco the coalition persuaded the city transit authority to make it easier to deny permits to companies facing labor strife." If your negotiations rely on the monopoly that the state provides, is it really a negotiation?

The tech giants negotiations are relying on the monopoly that the state provides. Just to pick one piece of legislation, the 1947 Taft-Hartley Act, the government disallows various worker/employer agreements that benefit those doing the work. Meaning corporate America generally outlawed certain deals that could happen, when the workers were in a good position, that the corporation was willing to do. That is relying o…

>In fact, if you look to history and the creation of the first states in Sumeria thousands of years ago, the raison d'etre of those states were to use violence and propaganda so that an idle class could expropriate surplus labor time from their slaves doing all the work.

No arguments here. I don't support either side. It's clear who will always be able to exploit the government most which is why it should be obviated.

Re: Organizers have unionized 5,000 contract workers at Apple, Facebook, Yahoo

#53
post #7

Appears to be free and non coercive negotiation until you get to the actual coersion: "In San Francisco the coalition persuaded the city transit authority to make it easier to deny permits to companies facing labor strife." If your negotiations rely on the monopoly that the state provides, is it really a negotiation?

In addition to the other informative responses, negotiations "rely on the monopoly that the state provides" in nearly all contractual negotiations that take place[1]. Aside from baselines like enforcement, the state dictates tons of terms that must or must not be contractually binding that vary heavily depending on sector.

Your complaint seems to reduce to the existence of the modern state.

[1] Black markets obviously have their own mechanisms.

Re: Organizers have unionized 5,000 contract workers at Apple, Facebook, Yahoo

#54
post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The downvotes speak volumes of the cognitive dissonance. Everone is fully in control of their destiny through their rugged individualism and bootstraps until they're laid off and packing up to head back home from SFBA because they have no worker protections. I suppose everyone has to learn the hard way (again) during the next downturn.

The comment you're replying to conflated gatekeeping associations, which aim to keep people out of the field to bolster demand, with worker protections.

Ignoring the ethics of the matter, I suspect that those already in the field would consider that a form of protection and hence a union would take on gatekeeping functions.

Re: Organizers have unionized 5,000 contract workers at Apple, Facebook, Yahoo

#55
post #38

Question for the HN crowd: do you think tech-workers will begin to unionize? It seems to me that (in general) they've got such a nice position in the economy there's probably a bit of an "if it ain't broke don't fix it" mentality. Is that correct?

If they are smart, they should: right now they have a lot of power in the workplace because there is demand for them. This is a problem tech business owners have identified: programmers have too much power on the job relative to their bosses. They require good wages, they require too many benefits, they complain and sue when they are sexually harassed, they demand equity and to be treated well and refuse to accept th…

[deleted]

Re: Organizers have unionized 5,000 contract workers at Apple, Facebook, Yahoo

#56
post #30

If there is one thing I've learned from two decades of reading about labor history, it's: Every gain labor has ever made has been taken. Every gain the working class (i.e. the overwhelming majority of people) has achieved has come from organizing their majority of low-power workers and then standing strongly against the empowered minority at the top. Good for these people. They are essentially moving our society forw…

Unfortunately, anyone willing to treat employees horribly, operates cheaper. If using trafficked chinese women were legal, the owner willing to be a psychopath will put his competition under. Capitalism is an inherently unstable system and only works with good regulation. I think a capitalist system only works as well as its regulation.

Well, a truly unregulated market approximates a war. Just look at the early history of trader/pirates. This doesn't mean capitalism is unstable; it's lowest energy state is the state of nature. Unrestricted warfare is bad for profits, as well as general wellbeing.

The trick is to add regulation without adding unnecessary friction, and finding an approximate solution to the free rider problem.

Re: Organizers have unionized 5,000 contract workers at Apple, Facebook, Yahoo

#57
post #44
post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most professionals also belong to labor unions. They're just not called that; they're called professional associations.

There are pretty huge differences between (say) the IEEE and the UAW. Collective bargaining, for example.

I think the GP was thinking more of the state Bars, the Federation of State Medical Boards, National Association of State Boards of Accountancy, etc.

Those are not in the same category as the IEEE.

Re: Organizers have unionized 5,000 contract workers at Apple, Facebook, Yahoo

#58
post #34
post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would hope not. I see tech-workers as professionals not as laborers. I think the great battle to be fought by tech workers is to stop having them treated as common laborers that perform some kind of rote process. Some times we call software development engineering, and if thats the case I would press anyone to show me an engineering discipline that parallels software engineering in terms of working conditions and r…

Most professionals also belong to labor unions. They're just not called that; they're called professional associations.

> Most professionals also belong to labor unions. They're just not called that; they're called professional associations.

There's a massive difference between a professional association and an NLRB-governed union.

Re: Organizers have unionized 5,000 contract workers at Apple, Facebook, Yahoo

#59
post #32

Question for the HN crowd: do you think tech-workers will begin to unionize? It seems to me that (in general) they've got such a nice position in the economy there's probably a bit of an "if it ain't broke don't fix it" mentality. Is that correct?

I would hope not. I see tech-workers as professionals not as laborers. I think the great battle to be fought by tech workers is to stop having them treated as common laborers that perform some kind of rote process. Some times we call software development engineering, and if thats the case I would press anyone to show me an engineering discipline that parallels software engineering in terms of working conditions and r…

Actors and writers are not laborers either and they're also competing against the "crapification" of their industry driven by execs trying to undercut them (e.g. reality TV).

Re: Organizers have unionized 5,000 contract workers at Apple, Facebook, Yahoo

#60
If the drivers and cafeteria workers at tech companies can organize, so can the developers.

Unlike the developers, the drivers tend to be financially insecure. In this economy, they're eminently replaceable. What they do is outside the core competency of their employers. You'd think they'd have almost no leverage. And yet, in the space of just a few years, they've managed to secure higher wages and health benefits --- in a market where non-technical employees are 1099'd specifically to avoid benefits obligations!

Like a lot of other occupations in the US market, tech workers have been bamboozled into believing that labor organization is something lower-status workers do. But, no: most of the classic professions, from doctors to lawyers, belong to professional associations. They may not call themselves "unions", but that's a distinction without a difference.

Tech workers blow off labor organizing because they feel themselves to be well-compensated. And they're right. So are the doctors and the lawyers. There are things to bargain for besides higher salaries. If you're wondering what they are, look no further than Hacker News, a ranked inventory of tech worker grievances. Can't see organizing a walk-off over pay raises? Well then, how about:

* The right to work from home when the team agrees that doing so has no negative impact on performance.

* The right to hire team members outside of SFBA when the development team decides it's appropriate to do so.

* The right to work on side projects alone and with your own resources without your employer claiming the fruits of your own free time.

* The right to work in an office with walls between you and salespeople on the phone all day.

* The right to hold on to your vested options for 10 years after you leave, rather than being forced to exercise at your own expense within 90 days.

* The right to visibility into the terms of your employer's financing, including the liquidations preferences and perks of investor preferred shares.

I could go on and on and on, but then, so can you, because we share this site.

Here's a thing that a lot of people on Hacker News don't know --- and I think this is a genuine case of something that the ownership class in the American economy doesn't want you to know:

Federal law rigorously protects your rights to organize in the workplace. We talk about "at-will employment" and "protected classes" (race, religion, gender) on HN quite a bit. We rarely talk about the other broad exemption in American law to at-will termination: labor organization. Not only can you not be fired for trying to organize a labor union (itself something that surprises a lot of people), but you can't be fired for protesting. You'll want to talk to a labor lawyer before you try this move, but: federal law prohibits the termination of an employee for engaging in "protected concerted action" to improve workplace conditions. You can, if you do it right, walk off your job and refuse to come back, and if you're disciplined for doing so, sue your employer.

It is crazy to me that we're not taking better advantage of this situation. The market power of software developers has never been higher. It may very well be at its zenith. For that matter, the labor laws of the US might not stay this way either. Now is the time to put it to use to secure the best, most productive conditions for technology work, not 20 years from now, when it might be just as hard for us as it was for the Facebook shuttle drivers.

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