Live data from Hacker News

Organizers have unionized 5,000 contract workers at Apple, Facebook, Yahoo

bloomberg.com

31–40 of 450 posts

Re: Organizers have unionized 5,000 contract workers at Apple, Facebook, Yahoo

#31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's a long, inefficient and useless money grab who's costs far outweigh the benefits. Everyone's entitled to their opinion. Perhaps some people want the worker protections other industrialized countries have? And if those people are the majority, they can get it. EDIT: > The speed at which this field moved is almost entirely due to the lack of encumbrances. Maybe this field needs some encumbrances and its time its…

If it took as long to build a web app as it did to build a bridge, and as much bureaucracy to go through, tech would be dead. Not every application should be built using NASA-like standards, which is the closest analog I can think of.

> Not every application should be built using NASA-like standards, which is the closest analog I can think of.

I agree. But more developers should know those standards. Don't call yourself an engineer if you're not willing to follow how legitimate engineers operate.

Re: Organizers have unionized 5,000 contract workers at Apple, Facebook, Yahoo

#32

Question for the HN crowd: do you think tech-workers will begin to unionize? It seems to me that (in general) they've got such a nice position in the economy there's probably a bit of an "if it ain't broke don't fix it" mentality. Is that correct?

I would hope not. I see tech-workers as professionals not as laborers. I think the great battle to be fought by tech workers is to stop having them treated as common laborers that perform some kind of rote process. Some times we call software development engineering, and if thats the case I would press anyone to show me an engineering discipline that parallels software engineering in terms of working conditions and relations.

Re: Organizers have unionized 5,000 contract workers at Apple, Facebook, Yahoo

#33
post #30

If there is one thing I've learned from two decades of reading about labor history, it's: Every gain labor has ever made has been taken. Every gain the working class (i.e. the overwhelming majority of people) has achieved has come from organizing their majority of low-power workers and then standing strongly against the empowered minority at the top. Good for these people. They are essentially moving our society forw…

Towards?

Re: Organizers have unionized 5,000 contract workers at Apple, Facebook, Yahoo

#34
post #32

Question for the HN crowd: do you think tech-workers will begin to unionize? It seems to me that (in general) they've got such a nice position in the economy there's probably a bit of an "if it ain't broke don't fix it" mentality. Is that correct?

I would hope not. I see tech-workers as professionals not as laborers. I think the great battle to be fought by tech workers is to stop having them treated as common laborers that perform some kind of rote process. Some times we call software development engineering, and if thats the case I would press anyone to show me an engineering discipline that parallels software engineering in terms of working conditions and r…

Most professionals also belong to labor unions. They're just not called that; they're called professional associations.

Re: Organizers have unionized 5,000 contract workers at Apple, Facebook, Yahoo

#35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I honestly think programmers are just demonstrating that they skew politically inept by not unionizing. Well, not a union as such, but if you look at other professional degrees, almost all of them have powerful trade groups that represent the workers -- doctors, engineers, lawyers, etc. I think it speaks more to political ineptitude and the newness of the field that programming doesn't even have the same support stru…

What do you mean by "other" professional degrees? There's no "professional degree" to become a programmer and I'd like to keep it that way.

I bet there was a time when doctors/engineers/lawyers/etc. said the same.

Re: Organizers have unionized 5,000 contract workers at Apple, Facebook, Yahoo

#36
post #21
post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A union is whatever the members want it to be. Just because traditional unions operate a certain way does not mean a union for tech workers has to operate the same way.

All unions, nay all power structures, naturally evolve to serve the interests of the _current_ members. Because of this, seniority-based benefits and insulating bad apples from termination are traits that almost always show up in every union through convergent evolution.

Your comment creates the impression that without unions, developers wouldn't have to deal with "power structures".

But to a pretty good first approximation every technology firm in the industry is a "power structure" --- a rigid and overt one, at that --- run by financiers and owners. So it's hard to see what rank-and-file professionals would have to lose from exercising their own market power, at least in your analysis.

Re: Organizers have unionized 5,000 contract workers at Apple, Facebook, Yahoo

#37
post #30

If there is one thing I've learned from two decades of reading about labor history, it's: Every gain labor has ever made has been taken. Every gain the working class (i.e. the overwhelming majority of people) has achieved has come from organizing their majority of low-power workers and then standing strongly against the empowered minority at the top. Good for these people. They are essentially moving our society forw…

Unfortunately, anyone willing to treat employees horribly, operates cheaper. If using trafficked chinese women were legal, the owner willing to be a psychopath will put his competition under.

Capitalism is an inherently unstable system and only works with good regulation. I think a capitalist system only works as well as its regulation.

Re: Organizers have unionized 5,000 contract workers at Apple, Facebook, Yahoo

#38

Question for the HN crowd: do you think tech-workers will begin to unionize? It seems to me that (in general) they've got such a nice position in the economy there's probably a bit of an "if it ain't broke don't fix it" mentality. Is that correct?

If they are smart, they should: right now they have a lot of power in the workplace because there is demand for them. This is a problem tech business owners have identified: programmers have too much power on the job relative to their bosses. They require good wages, they require too many benefits, they complain and sue when they are sexually harassed, they demand equity and to be treated well and refuse to accept the company asserting total ownership of their person in their contract, like non competes, binding arbitration, corporate ownership of every thought they have on the job or off. Could you imagine a company tracking every movement of every programmer at all times and automatically firing those who fail to "perform" according to certain metric? Does your eye linger too long on a comment relative to your peers? Fired. Did it take you too long to write this method this one time? Fired. This is the reality for Amazon warehouse workers and it could be for you, easily.

But there is a solution (from the prospective of employers) for this "problem": every time you hear someone talk about "teaching everyone to code" or "the STEM shortage" (which absolutely does not exist -- there is a shortage of qualified programmers willing to work for $12/hr, a shortage of hard science PhDs willing to do menial lab work for 10$/hr) this is coded language for "let's make millions more programmers so that they become so commonplace they become a commodity and may be treated as such". As it turns out, programming is not that hard, anyone could do it if they learned. And they are learning.

Programmers would be smart to unionize before this strategy succeeds, not after, it will be much easier while they still have power. But this requires social and political intelligence, and for programmers (who lean Libertarian up until the moment they get laid off or abused by their boss) to put their egos aside and disabuse themselves of the notion that they succeeded only because they are so much more brilliant than everyone else.

Re: Organizers have unionized 5,000 contract workers at Apple, Facebook, Yahoo

#39
post #30

If there is one thing I've learned from two decades of reading about labor history, it's: Every gain labor has ever made has been taken. Every gain the working class (i.e. the overwhelming majority of people) has achieved has come from organizing their majority of low-power workers and then standing strongly against the empowered minority at the top. Good for these people. They are essentially moving our society forw…

Since the capital and ownership sectors of our economy are all trained to operate businesses rationally and to not leave value on the table, it seems pretty clear that anything that labor doesn't take will be traded away.

To me, in that light, neither the "depredations" of owners and investors nor the "coercion" of labor unions is really a problem; it's just the natural give and take of the market at work.

The real problem is the late 20th century stigma labor organization has acquired. Without labor organization, the market system doesn't work.

Re: Organizers have unionized 5,000 contract workers at Apple, Facebook, Yahoo

#40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I honestly think programmers are just demonstrating that they skew politically inept by not unionizing. Well, not a union as such, but if you look at other professional degrees, almost all of them have powerful trade groups that represent the workers -- doctors, engineers, lawyers, etc. I think it speaks more to political ineptitude and the newness of the field that programming doesn't even have the same support stru…

What do you mean by "other" professional degrees? There's no "professional degree" to become a programmer and I'd like to keep it that way.

Really, what I meant was other "professional" or "white-collar" fields.

I'm sorry if that was unclear, it was early.

Post reply on HN