Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Java EE Is Moving to the Eclipse Foundation

adtmag.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

101–110 of 144 posts

Re: Java EE Is Moving to the Eclipse Foundation

#101

Post by Delmania »

cjsuk wrote: post #46
tannhaeuser wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They do for legacy apps only, though, since JSP, JSF and everything on top of it, such as portlets and faces component libs, has been obsolete for many years now. Handling UI state on the server just doesn't make any technical sense when there are React, Angular and Co as mainstream GUI kits. I guess there are still those shops maintaining intranet apps, and for whom it is a priority that everything is 100% Java, or…

A lot of enterprise companies aren't buying in JS frameworks because the velocity of those frameworks is too fast. I kind of agree. When you have 50,000 desktops, a 6 month lead dragging a pile of apps over to a new browser is a nightmare scenario. All it takes is one app which the vendor doesn't give a shit about and one internal app deprecating an IE version used by 50 users due to a JS framework change in a branch…

Most of those companies use AngularJS for that specific reason. It's stable, well tested and documents, and it works.

Re: Java EE Is Moving to the Eclipse Foundation

#102

Post by raverbashing »

hacking_again wrote: post #100
shagie wrote: post #15

This is IBM finally beating Sun over control of enterprise Java - something they've been fighting for for well over a decade (and much closer to two). IBM has been trying to get the Java process away from Sun - and they even backed an IDE to compete with NetBeans. Eclipse... of the Sun (Microsystems). Apparently, Oracle has finally gotten tired of IBM (through Eclipse) saying "we can do it better" and trying to manag…

Wow, after 15 years or whatever it is, I never made the connection between Eclipse and Sun!

Even more curiosly, Sun never saw a full solar eclipse in the US

Re: Java EE Is Moving to the Eclipse Foundation

#103

Post by eecc »

cjsuk wrote: post #51
tannhaeuser wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe for those customers it might make sense to donate to the Eclipse foundation to keep JSF etc. alive and to keep Java-only devs afloat? But then maintenance of J2EE has ceased because it's not economically feasible.

It probably would but it won't happen. It's difficult getting anything like that through the layers of purchasing hell. If they provided a web site with pictures of boxes of software for min $2000 that never arrived and didn't do anything it might work better. The moment someone says "donate" the bean counters start sharpening their pitchforks.

How about labelling that button "support" or "maintenance contract"?

Re: Java EE Is Moving to the Eclipse Foundation

#106

Post by andrewflnr »

vbezhenar wrote: post #95
alangibson wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where XML really shines is as an interchange format between the type of mission critical upgraded-once-a-decade systems that are the bread and butter of Big Business IT. I think XML got it's bad rep from people applying it where it's bulk and complexity is just not needed. For instance, storing configuration for an application that you completely control or shuffling around data inside of an application domain that y…

XML is not a good interchange format, because it doesn't map well to a standard programming structures. There's no array or map in XML. Developers must use OXM libraries (object to xml mapper). JSON is much more direct and simple format. XML is good for anything that looks like document markup.

Sometimes your actual data doesn't map well to "standard programming structures". If that's the case, you really want your interchange format to express reality as far as possible, not how it will be processed in any particular program. I don't have enough experience to be authoritative here, but this seems like a bad argument.

Re: Java EE Is Moving to the Eclipse Foundation

#107

Post by bm98 »

hacking_again wrote: post #100
shagie wrote: post #15

This is IBM finally beating Sun over control of enterprise Java - something they've been fighting for for well over a decade (and much closer to two). IBM has been trying to get the Java process away from Sun - and they even backed an IDE to compete with NetBeans. Eclipse... of the Sun (Microsystems). Apparently, Oracle has finally gotten tired of IBM (through Eclipse) saying "we can do it better" and trying to manag…

Wow, after 15 years or whatever it is, I never made the connection between Eclipse and Sun!

> "According to Lee Nackman, Chief Technology Officer of IBM's Rational division (originating in 2003) at that time, the name 'Eclipse' (dating from at least 2001) was not a wordplay on Sun Microsystems, as the product's primary competition at the time of naming was Microsoft Visual Studio, which Eclipse was to eclipse." [1]

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eclipse_(software)#Name

Re: Java EE Is Moving to the Eclipse Foundation

#108

Post by tannhaeuser »

sk5t wrote: post #82
tannhaeuser wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No reason to be rude. You do realize TFA is about putting J2EE to rest, don't you? I'm well aware of Java's qualities on the backend, but ignoring browser innovation for 10 years (iPhone and the push for responsive) or even 15 years (Ajax) isn't good advice IMHO. For better or worse, the same developer attitude and deployment constraints that made Java developers never look beyond the Java ecosystem is happening with…

No more full stack in Java? How about Play, Vaadin, Spring...

Don't get me wrong, I heard good things about Play, but isn't it Scala? Vaadin I know only from a customer of mine who are using it for server-rendered charting apps and I guess it works well in that capacity. And Spring MVC in 2017? Come on.

My point being that these frameworks are chosen because the options are limited to what's available on the JVM, trading last-gen Java know-how against younger (and sexier) know-how.

It's also a miracle to me why JavaScript isn't more popular with Java developers, of all people, when in fact Java has two mature JavaScript engines, and JavaScript certainly is interesting from a bridge/migration perspective. Years ago Oracle and RedHat had even partial Node.js ports, but it never went very far.

Re: Java EE Is Moving to the Eclipse Foundation

#109

Post by barrkel »

cjsuk wrote: post #84
barrkel wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Testing using mocks usually (a) over-specifies the code under test (e.g. mandating method call order and call count), and (b) under-tests the integration across the boundary - i.e. there's no guarantee that the mock acts the same way as the concrete implementation. I prefer composition through more general abstractions like iterators, consumers, functors etc. where possible. With more general abstractions, there's bo…

Call order and count assertions are important in non-idempotent calls (message delivery for example) and complex integration tests. While I respect your opinion, it misses three realities. Firstly you can't generalise most complex systems enough for this to be a viable solution universally. Secondly, skill level just isn't on the market to implement this for every case even if you could specify it. Thirdly, to solve…

I think "realities" are subjective here :)

Complex systems only become tractable when modularized, and simple module boundaries are preferable to chatty APIs; the nature of the system may make it more or less worthwhile, I'll agree.

Building crappier software because that's all you can build with the people you can find seems to me to be putting the cart before the horse. And I think you easily end up with crappier, less flexible software if you blindly follow Java norms. The tendency to over-specified tests both increases the cost of writing test code, increases the cost of refactoring (the tests usually need to change in some proportion to the implementation, even if the behaviour is no different), but even worse: your modules are, by default, not recomposable. When things are built out of data flow instead of control flow, you get a bunch of power almost for free.

Parallel and distributed processing, logging and system introspection, up to and including new product development using known good components. The business agility is especially important.

I've seen codebases calcified by "long land borders" between modules, with value locked in by the architecture, requiring risky and costly refactoring, rewrites or monotonically increasing complexity to try and repurpose that value. A system that looks more like Lego than a series of custom crafted blocks is more valuable, even if it's harder to build.

The opportunity cost obviously depends heavily on the domain. For an internal corporate IT project, I can certainly see that the upside isn't as clear.

Re: Java EE Is Moving to the Eclipse Foundation

#110

Post by watwut »

vbezhenar wrote: post #104

What those foundations even mean for projects? Is it like free web hosting or what? Why don't they move to github instead?

Governance. Github would be just free hosting + tracker.

The other thing is, emerging expectation that all open source projects should be stored in one place (Github) is not a good development. Puts too much power in hands of a single company.

Post reply on HN