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Thanks, but I have accepted another offer

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Re: Thanks, but I have accepted another offer

#51

This reads and looks like it was written by a teenager. Quite ironic that it is preaching professionalism. Edit: I did not mean this as "only girls are unprofessional" so I removed that part. Teenage boys are equally as unprofessional, but I don't think they express it in the exact same way. If this was filled with dick jokes and the like I would have written "teenage boy".

This sort of attitude sexist attitude towards women is exactly why our industry is in such state.

You are basically echoing the idea that women = unprofessional at such a young age.

We certainly do not want our teen girls to grow up believing that they are viewed as unprofessional in our industry.

Re: Thanks, but I have accepted another offer

#52
post #3

I value talented people but sometimes during the hiring process I find myself thinking: 1. You're spoiled 2. You're overpriced 3. Your lack of humility is going to burn us one day Technical folk and designers hold the whip hand right now, but that's no reason to abuse it.

At the higher end of the market (i.e you can get hired at the majors in a senior role or equivalent at a smaller company), I generally see three types of people:

I see people that truly understand their market value, have data backing it up, they are professional (I always tell people how I appreciate the time / offer, and I'm polite to recruiters), demanding about information (I have little tolerance for ambiguity in compensation, define everything, this is how I pay the mortgage and save for retirement / my kids college).

Some managers think that is spoiled (not that you are necessarily saying that), but this is a business transaction, I ask for market and turn it down if it's not that, or if the compensation is ambiguous.

Then I see those that don't know their value and just sort of take whatever because they don't like interviewing / negotiating. I don't see many of those at the high end.

The third group are who you are talking about, total babies. They complain about recruiters, or how much everyone wants them, place crazy demands on companies (I worked with a guy who literally had a rider like Van Halen in his LinkedIn profile, he ended up being a total prima donna who got fired because everyone hated him). Most people in this third group think they are in the first, and they aren't worth recruiting, even if they are strong technically.

Sometimes people believe this means startups / small companies can't compete, but the issue is, startups / small companies really aren't offering any sort of market comp, they don't give enough equity to employees to make the risk worth your while. You don't necessarily need to pay me what AmaGoogFaceSoft do, but you need to give me a significant chunk of equity and give me enough visibility into how that is cut up (preferences etc.) in the company for me to value it, otherwise its worth 0, even if I believe that the company will be successful. If you can't trust me enough with that sort of transparency, then it's not gonna work out. With a huge public company, I know what my stock is worth roughly.

Re: Thanks, but I have accepted another offer

#53
The hiring process deck is thoroughly stacked against the job seeker, allowing companies to get away with all kinds of abuse, flakiness and lack of follow-up/courtesy. The trick as a candidate is to simply not take anything personally, and not get focused on That One Employer. Someone else mentioned "professional detachment" and that's really important as it's an employer's market (and it usually is).

Just a rough napkin-estimate, but I'd guess that out of the recruiters that URGENTLY REACH OUT WITH A GREAT OPPORTUNITY PLEASE RESPOND, 75% won't even get back to you after your polite "Thanks for getting in touch, I'm interested!" response.

Of those that get back to you and do a brief phone chat, you will never hear back from 75% of them about going forward with a phone screen with the company.

After the phone screen(s) with the company, 75% won't get back to you about going on-site for the "whiteboard hazing" interviews.

Of those, 75% will ghost you. So you should expect around a 0.4% hit rate.

Re: Thanks, but I have accepted another offer

#54
post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From the other side of the table, employers usually hold all the cards. I don't care about your mission, your values, just show me the money. This is a transaction, not an interview for me to be a part of your family. I will be polite, but if you offer a dollar less in total compensation than the other person, I will accept the other offer and thank you for your time. Have to make hay while the sun is shining, and th…

> I will be polite, but if you offer a dollar less in total compensation than the other person, I will accept the other offer and thank you for your time. Many people take into consideration much more factors, than just money, i.e. it is common to work on crappy project in hostile environment with no flexibility for excellent money, and - on the contrary - work for a little less but on fun projects, in friendly envir…

But you don't, and can't, truly know any those other factors until you've worked some where for N weeks/months/years. Every company, when hiring, tries to put it's best face forward.

How will you know if the VP of Engineering is a borderline raving lunatic who treats his staff like garbage until you've had the opportunity to witness their behavior first hand? How will you know if your manager likes to micromanage their reports, making your day job a living hell, until you actually work underneath of them? How do you know beforehand if there are toxic individuals, that may be your co-workers or others that you need to work closely with, who create negative work and a poor working environment? How will you know beforehand if any of these things will be addressed if they are present? What about places with ridiculous office politics and bureaucracy? For instance, it can take years to find out nepotism runs rampant through different layers or departments in a company.

The best you can do is word of mouth and things like GlassDoor. But, word of mouth requires access to people who have worked or currently work at that place, and you have to take those things with a grain of salt, especially coming from former employees. Even if you do have access to these things, it's been my experience that these things only get you approximately close to some truth.

It's a very big gamble and, having lived through some of the above scenarios, I completely understand why people optimize this problem for the highest pay.

Re: Thanks, but I have accepted another offer

#56
post #26

This is bad advice for designers, sound very spoiled and prepotent. I don't think good experienced designers would be swayed by this, but beginners might read into this. Focus on your skills and what you want to do, and you will be fine. Stay away from 'priests' like this, they will not help you, you are only there to admire them. One skill that I would always value in designer is that he can produce in medium we are…

Is the "spoiled" part because of the presentation or the content? My read of the content is that it seems routine (for at least this person) to have hiring staff at companies routinely ignore follow-up emails, miss meetings, and engage in the designer equivalent of data structures and algorithms pedantry/hazing in the software side. I'm not sure wanting hiring people to have sufficient respect for the author's time a…

Like, you know, like, presentation :).

I agree that people miss appointments etc, but this is again distraction from bigger picture, where you would focus on your skills and what you really want to do. And especially how you want to do it, process is also important.

Re: Thanks, but I have accepted another offer

#57
post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From the other side of the table, employers usually hold all the cards. I don't care about your mission, your values, just show me the money. This is a transaction, not an interview for me to be a part of your family. I will be polite, but if you offer a dollar less in total compensation than the other person, I will accept the other offer and thank you for your time. Have to make hay while the sun is shining, and th…

It could be that people offering less simply don't value your skills as much. I've certainly seen people who think they are senior but in tests come out only intermediate. That someone else will buy into their senior claim doesn't mean the companies that do a better job judging skill level don't pay market rate. You seem to be implying that there is no such thing as being overpaid, which is pretty nonsensical.

> It could be that people offering less simply don't value your skills as much.

Entirely possible. Luckily, someone's inability to properly value an employee's skills doesn't prohibit said employee from finding an employer who will pay the market clearing price for their time. Value is determined by the market, not an individual hiring manager.

> You seem to be implying that there is no such thing as being overpaid, which is pretty nonsensical.

There isn't such a thing. Someone is getting paid what they were able to negotiate between two willing parties.

Re: Thanks, but I have accepted another offer

#58
post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Face to face. I'm talking about people who don't feel the need to in anyway justify why they're there. The discussion is basically a critical assessment of us combined with a mortal combat approach to salary discussions.

Let's be honest: the corporations that hire us will drop us as soon as it becomes convenient to the bottom line, and as likely as not without a severance package. You owe it to yourself to get the best possible compensation package, because no one else will do it for you.

That happens to all workers, but because technical workers are in short supply, that's why they tend to be spoiled and overpriced. Everyone else learns humility.

Re: Thanks, but I have accepted another offer

#59
post #3

I value talented people but sometimes during the hiring process I find myself thinking: 1. You're spoiled 2. You're overpriced 3. Your lack of humility is going to burn us one day Technical folk and designers hold the whip hand right now, but that's no reason to abuse it.

At the higher end of the market (i.e you can get hired at the majors in a senior role or equivalent at a smaller company), I generally see three types of people: I see people that truly understand their market value, have data backing it up, they are professional (I always tell people how I appreciate the time / offer, and I'm polite to recruiters), demanding about information (I have little tolerance for ambiguity i…

There is probably a 2bis category of people who know their value but do not like to interview and negotiate. They will take or not what is given to them but it is a one shot proposition.

I usually tell companies that I really do not like to negotiate compensation because this is logistics to me and is not worth the effort. Either a company is good and gives the right pay or I pass. I tell this early enough so that there is no expectation of haggling. So far it worked.

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