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Mercedes Has the Horsepower for Tesla Battle

bloomberg.com

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Re: Mercedes Has the Horsepower for Tesla Battle

#11

Post by ginko »

VeejayRampay wrote: post #7
LeifCarrotson wrote: post #2

The problem isn't that Mercedes, VW, and other big automakers don't have more horsepower in terms of dollars to spend on R&D than Tesla. To abuse the car analogy, it's a problem of momentum and power-to-weight ratios. Mercedes needs to do a complete 180 to become an electric car manufacturer. Employees with education and years of experience in internal combustion engines will fight their obsolescence. Plants and prod…

Seriously, as a Frenchman, if history has taught me ANYTHING about the Germans, it's that they're generally very apt at changing course, adapting and being ahead of the curve. They have that image of not being the most flexible but when it comes to technology and industry, they're pretty damn good and I think they'll make that transition just like they've made all the necessary transitions before.

A good counter example of this is the downfall of the German camera industry in the 60s and 70s. All that's left of that is Leica, Zeiss and a bunch of brand names (Rollei, Contax, Voigtländer..) stuck on Japanese cameras.

Re: Mercedes Has the Horsepower for Tesla Battle

#12

Post by userpass »

ams6110 wrote: post #4
LeifCarrotson wrote: post #2

The problem isn't that Mercedes, VW, and other big automakers don't have more horsepower in terms of dollars to spend on R&D than Tesla. To abuse the car analogy, it's a problem of momentum and power-to-weight ratios. Mercedes needs to do a complete 180 to become an electric car manufacturer. Employees with education and years of experience in internal combustion engines will fight their obsolescence. Plants and prod…

I would not call it a 180. Maybe more like a right turn, if even that much. All their sheet metal stamping (or carbon fiber fabrication), chassis-making, interior manufacturing, paint, as well as parts suppliers for all that, glass, brakes, tires, wheels, etc. can be directly used. They just need to change the drivetrain. Their distribution, dealer network, marketing, etc. is in place world-wide and very well establi…

The primary reason why ICE manufacturers are hesitating is because battery technology is simply not ready yet for non luxury cars. An equivalent ICE car costs 10k+ less because there is no battery.

Re: Mercedes Has the Horsepower for Tesla Battle

#14

Post by mgr86 »

xutopia wrote: post #6

I don't think people realize just how much Musk is laughing at all this. He gave away many electric car patents because he knew he would profit from it so long as he has the best battery factory in the world. As it stands Tesla owns the building, the factory and rents some of it out to Panasonic. Unless Mercedes finds a cheaper battery elsewhere they're going to be paying Tesla for these.

While I've digested with some heavy skepticism, I always was lead to believe it was for more altruistic reasons. Future profit was not his motivation, insomuch as increased competition and proliferation of electric vehicles into the marketplace. Leading to the an end of fossil fuels in vehicles.

Ultimately, both statements can be true. Increase proliferation while generating multiple revenue streams off of Tesla R&D.

Re: Mercedes Has the Horsepower for Tesla Battle

#15

Post by honestoHeminway »

ams6110 wrote: post #4
LeifCarrotson wrote: post #2

The problem isn't that Mercedes, VW, and other big automakers don't have more horsepower in terms of dollars to spend on R&D than Tesla. To abuse the car analogy, it's a problem of momentum and power-to-weight ratios. Mercedes needs to do a complete 180 to become an electric car manufacturer. Employees with education and years of experience in internal combustion engines will fight their obsolescence. Plants and prod…

I would not call it a 180. Maybe more like a right turn, if even that much. All their sheet metal stamping (or carbon fiber fabrication), chassis-making, interior manufacturing, paint, as well as parts suppliers for all that, glass, brakes, tires, wheels, etc. can be directly used. They just need to change the drivetrain. Their distribution, dealer network, marketing, etc. is in place world-wide and very well establi…

>Their distribution, dealer network, marketing, etc. is in place world-wide and very well established.

Yes, and they will resist screaming the dismantling of the configurators and catalogs, the selling points that where all the extras- and that Tesla ships as upgrades for free.

If they want to pull a Microsoft here- they will have to something pretty rad, to see it through.

Re: Mercedes Has the Horsepower for Tesla Battle

#16

Post by saosebastiao »

LeifCarrotson wrote: post #2

The problem isn't that Mercedes, VW, and other big automakers don't have more horsepower in terms of dollars to spend on R&D than Tesla. To abuse the car analogy, it's a problem of momentum and power-to-weight ratios. Mercedes needs to do a complete 180 to become an electric car manufacturer. Employees with education and years of experience in internal combustion engines will fight their obsolescence. Plants and prod…

GM maybe. Mercedes definitely not. Unlike almost all automakers, Mercedes has consistently embraced change. Their entire premise is to build a car that is 10 years into the future, and generally speaking they do it. Sometimes they mispredict the future, but they have never been afraid to correct course. A different type of drivetrain doesn't mean starting from scratch. It's a major component, but it would be foolish to think they can't be taken seriously.

Re: Mercedes Has the Horsepower for Tesla Battle

#17

Post by arethuza »

ginko wrote: post #11
VeejayRampay wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seriously, as a Frenchman, if history has taught me ANYTHING about the Germans, it's that they're generally very apt at changing course, adapting and being ahead of the curve. They have that image of not being the most flexible but when it comes to technology and industry, they're pretty damn good and I think they'll make that transition just like they've made all the necessary transitions before.

A good counter example of this is the downfall of the German camera industry in the 60s and 70s. All that's left of that is Leica, Zeiss and a bunch of brand names (Rollei, Contax, Voigtländer..) stuck on Japanese cameras.

Contax isn't even that anymore (former happy owner of a 159MM many years ago).

Re: Mercedes Has the Horsepower for Tesla Battle

#18

Post by nwhatt »

xutopia wrote: post #6

I don't think people realize just how much Musk is laughing at all this. He gave away many electric car patents because he knew he would profit from it so long as he has the best battery factory in the world. As it stands Tesla owns the building, the factory and rents some of it out to Panasonic. Unless Mercedes finds a cheaper battery elsewhere they're going to be paying Tesla for these.

Yeah he understands value networks and disruptive innovation. Daimler needs to start looking like Tesla - no dealerships, big investments in batteries, cheap solar, in order to compete with Tesla. Especially since the article says they need to have smaller margins on the EVs.

Re: Mercedes Has the Horsepower for Tesla Battle

#19

Post by LeifCarrotson »

ams6110 wrote: post #4
LeifCarrotson wrote: post #2

The problem isn't that Mercedes, VW, and other big automakers don't have more horsepower in terms of dollars to spend on R&D than Tesla. To abuse the car analogy, it's a problem of momentum and power-to-weight ratios. Mercedes needs to do a complete 180 to become an electric car manufacturer. Employees with education and years of experience in internal combustion engines will fight their obsolescence. Plants and prod…

I would not call it a 180. Maybe more like a right turn, if even that much. All their sheet metal stamping (or carbon fiber fabrication), chassis-making, interior manufacturing, paint, as well as parts suppliers for all that, glass, brakes, tires, wheels, etc. can be directly used. They just need to change the drivetrain. Their distribution, dealer network, marketing, etc. is in place world-wide and very well establi…

Granted, in part. Especially on interior manufacturing, where Tesla's flagship Model-S luxury sedan could stand to learn a thing or two from Mercedes, and in sheet metal stamping/carbon fiber fabrication, where OEMs do invest a lot of attention.

But I maintain that the primary focus of an automotive manufacturer is their powertrain. This is evidenced by the outsourcing of many of those other components, and by the relative budgets given to those different R&D departments. Furthermore, the other departments have become tightly coupled to the powertrain: The chassis is largely designed around the engine bay, not a large battery and electric motor. Engine braking is barely an afterthought in the design of the brakes, and regenerative braking changes a lot of that design. Auxiliary systems like entertainment, power steering, air conditioning, etc. have the existence of an alternator and serpentine belt as a fundamental principle.

Whether it's 180 or 90 degrees, it's still a difficult change for a big company.

Re: Mercedes Has the Horsepower for Tesla Battle

#20

Post by nimos »

xutopia wrote: post #6

I don't think people realize just how much Musk is laughing at all this. He gave away many electric car patents because he knew he would profit from it so long as he has the best battery factory in the world. As it stands Tesla owns the building, the factory and rents some of it out to Panasonic. Unless Mercedes finds a cheaper battery elsewhere they're going to be paying Tesla for these.

China has over half the marketshare for lithium-ion battery production and that is expected to grow.

Tesla might be a single large producer but it is a fraction of the overall world production. Is he even planning to have that much excess capacity after powerwall/teslas?

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