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Coding Boot Camps Get the Boot: Why the Industry Is Shutting Down

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101–110 of 152 posts

Re: Coding Boot Camps Get the Boot: Why the Industry Is Shutting Down

#101
post #49

So I think this is completely wrong. Bootcamps are providing a route to jobs that doesn't involve taking another for years it for a university degree; it's a massive gain in efficiency. By being smaller, bootcamps should have more ability to pivot content to match market demands, and give students advice on directions to persue. Front end development needs for entry level people are getting satisfied, so it's time to…

University education is absolutely an overcrowded space. Most colleges do not live up to their cost. Students are starting to notice and choose other options. It's also well known theres too many law schools and too many lawyers. It's a bad market to enter into now.

I want to upvote you for your practical values and downvote you because of your lack of cites. Can we get some sources here?

Re: Coding Boot Camps Get the Boot: Why the Industry Is Shutting Down

#102
post #38

I think that bootcamps actually can work well for people who already have highly honed analytical and logical reasoning skills, but for whatever reason haven't gotten involved in programming. For instance, a linguistics or philosophy major, or maybe a pure math major, who hasn't done any programming. For example, in a math class on graph theory, we essentially did DFS and BFS, but through proof, not through code. I t…

I completely agree. I did my undergrad and grad studies in philosophy, specifically focusing on contemporary and symbolic logic, before joining a six month bootcamp. Before the bootcamp, I had at least six months of development experience. Would I do it again? Absolutely, the bootcamp gave me discipline, a network, and a schedule to fill the gaps in my development experience. Did it teach me computer science? No way.…

Just like most things in life, you get out of it what you put into it.

> I like to think that bootcamps are just an extension or tool to employ as an autodidact.

If you are an autodidact, a bootcamp isn't even required. The Internet is chock full of resources for learning programming that makes it extremely simple to learn on your own. I look at a bootcamp as paying for connections. A Bootcamp should help get you in touch with prospective employers or connect you with other developers with similar goals. Learning how to program is the easy part when compared to learning the soft skills required to be part of or build a successful company.

Re: Coding Boot Camps Get the Boot: Why the Industry Is Shutting Down

#103
post #58

Why do people think a 12 week course will make a non-technical person ready for a junior developer role? Most developers I know have years of deep experience with computers before becoming professional programmers. (Things like fixing driver issues, installing linux, patching games etc). I have several friends who went to bootcamps had no deep technical interest beforehand. They just heard that computer programming w…

>>They just heard that computer programming was good money, and they enrolled. I think this is the biggest possible problem with them. I've known a few people who've gone through it and done well. The different between them and others is that they want to be programmers. The 12 week course didn't teach them everything, but it taught them enough to go and figure out what questions to ask and search for. Those people w…

Many students don't understand why they go into their chosen fields at first. They say it is "passion for---" when really, it just seems like a stable, responsible profession that their parents approve of. Along the way, hopefully, with the help of fantastic teachers, a true love of the subject emerges, deeper interests within it are explored and uncovered, and a great doctor or lawyer is made. (My own PCP and another surgeon of mine and my dentist are some of these amazing people) There are other versions of this. Artists and musicians who realize they won't make it go into medicine to make money, at their last available second before their ship goes down. The thing is, they learned something from their previous profession... they learned how to really get into a lifelong pursuit with rigor and intensity and invention and purpose. One never loses the need for that once it is activated. These bootcamps are flooded with folks like this- those who crave actual content to sink their mental teeth into, with Actual Masters in the field to help guide them in a more financially (but no less interesting and intellectually worthy) rewarding/viable direction than the direction they had been going in as a performance artist or Morris dancer (the profession they chose as pre-teens). I kid, but seriously. And what do they find at these bootcamps? Decidedly Not That. —No real masters in the field, no deeply engaging content on par with Morris dancing (or Russian Literature, or Political Science, or The Classics, History, or Art), and no hope for anything but the same disrespect upon leaving these "camps" from future employers than they got as Classics MAs or PHDs. They get spat upon like they presented themselves as puppeteers or mimes. This is why the money just isn't coming into these bootcamps anymore. Smart folks hide the bootcamp from their resume, which means they need to hide the associating GitHub repositories (lots of work here, folks). These graduates talk to one another. A lot. They talk about how they are treated at interviews, or even before interviews. They just don't have the money and time to fart around in their new garrett deleting work they have done that might associate them with a bootcamp, making huge portfolios of visually pleasing apps and deeply meaningful contributions to opensource software projects(not that they would not love to do just that, mind you). They need jobs. And they see other barely competent folks working jobs in tech companies who had nothing resembling their education and even coding ability getting paychecks because they got there sooner. That is why they aren't buying the snake oil anymore. It just isn't the "on ramp" these camps make it out to be anymore, even though it seems to have been for a short time.

After this thread ages for a day or so, head over to the Twitter feeds of bootcamp CEOs and directors to hear how they describe this thread as being "all anecdotal evidence of a few who "Don't Really Know What IS Going On"" instead of taking this information in... in a meaningful way and making actual change for the students they already have and the ones they hope to get in the future. That costs too much money and time. Money and time they would prefer the students spend. So these students are squeezed on both sides- by the camps who false promise and the employers who want them to arrive job-ready out of the gate. Jumping up and down and saying it ain't so isn't going to make this un-so.

I think we need to stop degrading people for wanting a job and calling that "just in it for the money". Everyone does a job "for the money". Why should a worker not want compensation for hard work? Come on! We call those people "artists" don't we? And we know how much they get paid. This isn't heading in a good direction. Let's show some vision.

Re: Coding Boot Camps Get the Boot: Why the Industry Is Shutting Down

#104

So I think this is completely wrong. Bootcamps are providing a route to jobs that doesn't involve taking another for years it for a university degree; it's a massive gain in efficiency. By being smaller, bootcamps should have more ability to pivot content to match market demands, and give students advice on directions to persue. Front end development needs for entry level people are getting satisfied, so it's time to…

> Bootcamps are providing a route to jobs that doesn't involve taking another for years it for a university degree; it's a massive gain in efficiency.

Problem is they aren't teaching enough in bootcamps. You're not going to learn enough in 3-6 months to be hirable. There's too much else to the job, unless you can go to work for those magical companies that use a STACK that is a 1:1 match for what you learned in bootcamp. Most companies aren't interested in hand-holding.

If bootcamps would partner with companies to bring in bootcampers at $30k/year and let the real learning begin, it would be a successful model. Unfortunately, the bootcamp marketing is selling something far more grandiose.

Re: Coding Boot Camps Get the Boot: Why the Industry Is Shutting Down

#105

"While coding boot camps had many course listings on JavaScript, Ruby, and web development, they had none that covered product management, wireframing, cloud computing, DevOps, or Agile methodologies" I have a 4 year computer science degree and I didn't learn any of the listed topics either, so I'm not sure if the article is implying that other institutions do prepare new grads for these topics. The main advantage I…

Ditto on the CS Degree. Closest thing I learned to the above skills that was part of the curriculum was Waterfall, UML, and making ERDs. Had to teach myself git.

Did git exist at the time you were in school? Or are you using it as a generic term for an SCM?

Re: Coding Boot Camps Get the Boot: Why the Industry Is Shutting Down

#106
post #58

Why do people think a 12 week course will make a non-technical person ready for a junior developer role? Most developers I know have years of deep experience with computers before becoming professional programmers. (Things like fixing driver issues, installing linux, patching games etc). I have several friends who went to bootcamps had no deep technical interest beforehand. They just heard that computer programming w…

> Why do people think a 12 week course will make a non-technical person ready for a junior developer role?

The cynical answer is because they saw an ad telling them that the bootcamp would get them A SIX FIGURE JOB!!! and they want to believe it. It's an incredibly attractive pitch.

Re: Coding Boot Camps Get the Boot: Why the Industry Is Shutting Down

#107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I completely agree. I did my undergrad and grad studies in philosophy, specifically focusing on contemporary and symbolic logic, before joining a six month bootcamp. Before the bootcamp, I had at least six months of development experience. Would I do it again? Absolutely, the bootcamp gave me discipline, a network, and a schedule to fill the gaps in my development experience. Did it teach me computer science? No way.…

Just like most things in life, you get out of it what you put into it. > I like to think that bootcamps are just an extension or tool to employ as an autodidact. If you are an autodidact, a bootcamp isn't even required. The Internet is chock full of resources for learning programming that makes it extremely simple to learn on your own. I look at a bootcamp as paying for connections. A Bootcamp should help get you in…

That's true. I wouldn't necessarily agree that it's easy. One of the biggest difficulties when learning programming is just knowing where to start. Looking for mentors or resources isn't difficult. On the contrary, you are inundated with varying opinions. Making decisions about which technology to employ is an exercise in futility. A bootcamp helped me to not only learn technologies, but also how to make what at first seems like arbitrary choices. I credit this to my world-class instructor. It doesn't sound like everyone was so lucky.

Without initial guidance and a firm commitment, we end up with questions like, "Should I learn Java or Javascript?" or "Can I learn Go in a week?" Is it possible to self teach completely? Yes. But you would need both discipline and analytical rigor as well as the humility to find help when you run into issues. I went into the bootcamp looking for both a mentor, which I found, and connections, which I also found.

Re: Coding Boot Camps Get the Boot: Why the Industry Is Shutting Down

#108
post #8

Bootcamps are just too short. I think the sweet spot for a coursework in programming is a year to two years. That's essentially how long my university degree was if you remove the non-CS required classes.

More like 5 if people want to use the term "engineer" on their CV.

In the US "engineer" among developers is just a word - there are people with one Javascript framework and killer Stack Overflow copy-and-paste skills calling themselves "software engineers".

As I said in a thread about this very topic, I feel that a better title is "software technician" (in the same sense as a automotive technician or a dental technician)

Re: Coding Boot Camps Get the Boot: Why the Industry Is Shutting Down

#109
post #38

I think that bootcamps actually can work well for people who already have highly honed analytical and logical reasoning skills, but for whatever reason haven't gotten involved in programming. For instance, a linguistics or philosophy major, or maybe a pure math major, who hasn't done any programming. For example, in a math class on graph theory, we essentially did DFS and BFS, but through proof, not through code. I t…

I think a lot of CS guys could benefit from a bootcamp. A lot of the guys we hire have almost no practical skills so a few weeks of real development would benefit them enormously.

When I studied mechanical engineering we had to work in a shop for 8 weeks doing a lot of manual stuff, welding and using a lot of machines. You don't learn this stuff in university and it was immensely valuable to me.

Re: Coding Boot Camps Get the Boot: Why the Industry Is Shutting Down

#110
post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

3 out of 923 comments is a trend now? I think you need to reevaluate what you consider obvious/significant.

4 explicitly say it which is in a way kind of them. Many others probably just drop the resume right in the trash.

You're just assuming that though. You don't have producible evidence of this. It's the conclusion that you want to draw, so anything that might provide your conclusion evidence, you take as evidence.

What I can tell you is that I know many, many bootcamp grads and virtually all of them got good jobs, at good companies and not always junior. I still don't take that as proof of anything and am willing to take evidence to the contrary where it exists though.

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