Live data from Hacker News

In Defense of Amy Wax’s Defense of Bourgeois Values

heterodoxacademy.org

191–200 of 235 posts

Re: In Defense of Amy Wax’s Defense of Bourgeois Values

#191
post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Small nitpick: While Jazz is mostly an African American creation and most of it's most successful practitioners are black, most Jazz aficionados will bristle at lumping Jazz with hiphop... it would be like lumping Beethoven with Ozzy Osborne, doesn't compute....I am a big hiphop fan and a lover of jazz but they are different.

Well, of course they are, but your first sentence is all I was after. Jazz and hiphop share the fact that they were authored, in majority, by african-americans and the songs in both genres, in majority, tell tales of poverty and hope.

NOT AT ALL. While hiphop does a lot of "tales of poverty", jazz for starters is mostly instrumental. Secondly, Jazz is fairly diverse in terms of the topics (love and life) that are covered in songs...It is simply wrong to pigeon hole these art forms as about "tales of poverty".

Re: In Defense of Amy Wax’s Defense of Bourgeois Values

#192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not attributing this to you, but you could deploy your argument against abolishing slavery. > How do you propose to raise up a culture that doesn't value diligent hard work Which culture? Don't be abstract. Name what culture you think doesn't value hard work and I will and we'll see if I can't find a counterexample.

I prefer positive examples. It's no secret that the Jewish people have done so phenomenally well, despite two millennia of persecution, because of their strong values of hard work, family, and creativity.

They are also benefiting heavily from genetics, their average IQ being roughly an entire standard deviation above average.

Re: In Defense of Amy Wax’s Defense of Bourgeois Values

#193
post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not saying it's controversial, but I'd rather see strong evidence that just make assumptions based on general cultural stereotypes like "Jewish people work hard" or weak evidence like "they own a disproportionate amount of wealth."

Eh, it's a little bit controversial. As nearly as I can tell the 25% figure comes from Stormfront, and I've been unable to find any independent source for it; the triple parenthesis are a bit of a tip off. It is probably a corruption of a claim that 25% of US billionaires were Jewish, which is a radically different claim.

I've actually never seen Stormfront, but you're right that my sources are shit. I've not been able to find any figures on what the correct percentage would be, and Wikipedia says that only 2% of America is Jewish. And it is closer to 30% of the Forbes 400 now, and 30% of the top 100.

Re: In Defense of Amy Wax’s Defense of Bourgeois Values

#194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And some people would view getting put on a hot stove as a fun and exciting thing, so no, not really. Unsure of why I'm getting downvotes.. Are people completely unaware of the fact that some people enjoy pain?

You made a pretty contrived comment to refute the parent poster, considering how unlikely it is that someone would find it a fun and exciting thing to do.

[deleted]

Re: In Defense of Amy Wax’s Defense of Bourgeois Values

#195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's called moral relativism. It does't get you very far, because it is a belief system with no values, and therefore nothing to aim at. There are some tools for objectively judging morality aka "good and bad". One is the principle of universality. So an outcome is moral if you can reasonably state that you would be equally happy to be on either side of the table. Slavery generally fails this test, since most peopl…

There's nothing objective about picking and applying an arbitrary principle, though. Also, it's not true that a moral relativist must have no values. One can have values while believing they are not objective, but closer to preferences held very strongly.

A moral relativist may have values, but moral relativism does not. It claims all values are subjective, as OP did.

Re: In Defense of Amy Wax’s Defense of Bourgeois Values

#196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's called moral relativism. It does't get you very far, because it is a belief system with no values, and therefore nothing to aim at. There are some tools for objectively judging morality aka "good and bad". One is the principle of universality. So an outcome is moral if you can reasonably state that you would be equally happy to be on either side of the table. Slavery generally fails this test, since most peopl…

The capitalism system itself fails the universality test, because a person wouldn’t be equally happy to be on either side of a table with Jeff Bezos on one side and an unskilled immigrant on the other. Arguably slavery never went away, it’s just that the slavery franchise was disguised/rebranded and then extended as social mobility was slowly rolled back.

That's not a valid test, since you can't switch bodies with Jeff Bezos. I'd also disagree with your premise, because presumably the unskilled immigrant desired to immigrate to capitalist America in this thought experiment.

I think it went away. Capitalism doesn't force anyone to work, you may choose not to participate in the labour market and be homeless.

Re: In Defense of Amy Wax’s Defense of Bourgeois Values

#197
post #7

If 'all cultures are not equal' is a false statement then we're stating 'all cultures are equal' which I interpret as saying there is no metric by which we can measure the 'goodness' or 'effectiveness' of a culture. So let's accept the statement 'all cultures are equal' at face value: all cultures are equal and therefore there exists no metric for measuring 'goodness' or 'effectiveness.' If C(now) captures my current…

There are two propositions you can entertain here.

1. All cultures are equal in the sense that they are equally as good. 2. There is no way to compare the merits of any two cultures.

(1) is a claim that attributes equal merit to each culture. It is then necessary to establish what exactly these merits are.

(2) is a claim that does not per se exclude the possibility of there being a matter of fact about which culture is superior in which ways w.r.t. other cultures. It denies the possibility of establishing what the fact of the matter is.

(1) admits only two possible presuppositions. Either (a) all cultures are equal because the good they impart onto individuals and societies is ultimately the same and thus differences are merely cosmetic, or (b) cultures are not a good (that is, neutral or inert w.r.t. the good).

(2) admits two possibilities as well. Either (a) our ability to know is limited or impaired or (b) we cannot know because there is nothing to know, i.e., (1b).

I think focusing on (1) in this context is a waste of time because clearly no one in this context actually believes it. Protests have a motive and motives only make sense w.r.t. to some end. As you point out, what's the impetus when change produces no change in the good? Protesters and revolutionaries may hold incoherent and confused beliefs, they may have ulterior motives, they may be wrong, but ultimately there is a belief that what is now is evil and what they aim at is better.

Ultimately, to be able to judge the merits of any culture requires (at least) a sound philosophical anthropology. You need to understand the nature of man to know what he requires to flourish. Only then can you judge whether, in what ways and to what degree a culture enables that flourishing.

Re: In Defense of Amy Wax’s Defense of Bourgeois Values

#198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's called moral relativism. It does't get you very far, because it is a belief system with no values, and therefore nothing to aim at. There are some tools for objectively judging morality aka "good and bad". One is the principle of universality. So an outcome is moral if you can reasonably state that you would be equally happy to be on either side of the table. Slavery generally fails this test, since most peopl…

As an interesting aside, this statement shows the massive impact Kant has had on modern thought. To the point that it's difficult to overestimate his impact. The principle of universality is a relatively modern phenomenon. For much of recorded history that was not the dominant value.[1] [1]: There's several good texts exploring how people may have thought at various times in history (because it's all speculation, of…

Very true, stinkytaco

Re: In Defense of Amy Wax’s Defense of Bourgeois Values

#199
post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Which is easy to measure I think this might be formally incomputable...

Well, it seems to me intuitively obvious that cultures that value education prepare children better for their economic future than cultures that don't value education. I may not be able to compute it. I may not even be able to measure it. But I think that anyone who disagrees is making a far less reasonable claim than I am making, and therefore has the burden of proof.

Well, that depends on what you mean by 'education.' If you mean actual adaptive critical thought, then what you say is true, but almost tautological. If you mean rote indoctrination into an existing way of thought, then it is neither intuitive nor obvious that this leads to a better economic future. If you mean something in the middle, then we could land anywhere in between, couldn't we?

Re: In Defense of Amy Wax’s Defense of Bourgeois Values

#200
post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I prefer positive examples. It's no secret that the Jewish people have done so phenomenally well, despite two millennia of persecution, because of their strong values of hard work, family, and creativity.

How is this at all controversial? The American Jewish minority of 6% of the population owns 25% of American wealth. They've done well. Are the downvotes about attributing it to their values? What else? Their skill at (((accidental))) eugenics? The selection pressure put on them by other groups? Other theory: KGB or Mossad votebots that want to suppress discussions about Jews not only being victims.

I was only speaking admirably of the Jews. I'm not sure what you're getting at, or what's sarcastic or not in your post. But I don't see the need for the triple-parentheses.
Post reply on HN