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The fertility of the older mind

bbc.com

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Re: The fertility of the older mind

#41

Post by michrassena »

sireat wrote: post #13

I think the article paints too rosy a picture for older minds. Yes you can learn things as you get older but the bar for your achievements gets lower and lower as you age. Let's take chess: There are no cases of a novice starting to learn at the age of 25 and becoming a grandmaster. You need to do some of that deliberate practice at an early age. I suspect the case is the same for math,programming, violin playing etc…

I doubt there are many cases of people starting to run at 25 and becoming Olympic sprinters either. And for the majority of us, that's ok. Learning when one is older is a quality of life issue. It's not about being the best at anything, but rather expanding one's horizons, keeping life fresh and interesting, finding something to challenge oneself and providing motivation and fulfillment. Those opportunities are available to almost anyone who is healthy regardless of age. Mastery is secondary, and it's a bit defeatist in my opinion to not start something new simply because it can't be mastered. Many activities can be enjoyed without achieving full proficiency.

Re: The fertility of the older mind

#42

Post by ericd »

Mediterraneo10 wrote: post #25
fnovd wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Keep in mind that Americans live in a country where you can drive for hundreds of miles in any direction and still end up somewhere where English is spoken. We can hop around from state to state and opportunity to opportunity without having to take the time to learn a new language. The US is not Europe.

Yours is a typical American reaction that suggests that others learn foreign languages only because they might have to communicate after driving a short distance. In fact, Europeans have been able for centuries to communicate with neighbouring countries in their own language or rudimentarily known lingua francas without having to expend effort of picking up a new language. And yet, they still often decide to learn a…

It might also be that your culture values that heavily as a good thing for its own sake, whereas ours doesn't as much? My impression is that the English Commonwealth countries don't place much value on language learning (I could certainly be wrong on that front).

Re: The fertility of the older mind

#43

Post by ericd »

Karrot_Kream wrote: post #34
Mediterraneo10 wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yours is a typical American reaction that suggests that others learn foreign languages only because they might have to communicate after driving a short distance. In fact, Europeans have been able for centuries to communicate with neighbouring countries in their own language or rudimentarily known lingua francas without having to expend effort of picking up a new language. And yet, they still often decide to learn a…

I'm guessing the OP is being downvoted, but I'm not sure why. OP is right. Even in East Asia, plenty of people learn Japanese to watch anime, Chinese to enjoy Chinese classics, medieval stories, CPop, Korean for KPop, etc, etc. South Asia has a very rich intellectual tradition in dozens of languages, and a thriving (albeit scrappy) industry of film in local languages. Don't forget the time-honored trope of learning E…

Do you know if multilingualism is more common in England, Australia, or New Zealand? I've got the (maybe mistaken) impression that it's just not valued as highly in the English Commonwealth as in other countries.

Re: The fertility of the older mind

#44

Post by expertentipp »

skrebbel wrote: post #15
expertentipp wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I cannot resist from a sarcastic comment. I find it cute when Americans claim they are "learning a foreign language". Currently I live in a 5th country. Each of them had completely different language, only two were from the same language family. I had no knowledge of English until I had been ~18.

For all your language skills, I'm not sure you know what sarcasm is.

Ha! Vocabulary is my Achilles ankle!

Re: The fertility of the older mind

#45

Post by uptownfunk »

koolba wrote: post #10
gopalv wrote: post #3

> Or perhaps children are simply less inhibited and aren’t so scared about making mistakes. Struck a chord there - because I had come to the same conclusion of sorts, about my ability to practice activities in public. Riding a bicycle is a fairly hard thing to learn and very easy to practice (from my experience), but learning to do that when everyone around is falling off them was much less of a struggle than trying…

Learning a language (spoken, not programming) is similar. If you're willing to sound like an idiot with a bad accent, constantly messing up words and parts of speech, it's easy to get immersed. If you're self conscious it's significantly more difficult.

Agreed, I've since realized that most foreigners are charmed by the very act of making a sincere effort to speak their language. So really, there is something to gain in even speaking the language quite poorly.

Re: The fertility of the older mind

#46

Post by Allower »

koolba wrote: post #10
gopalv wrote: post #3

> Or perhaps children are simply less inhibited and aren’t so scared about making mistakes. Struck a chord there - because I had come to the same conclusion of sorts, about my ability to practice activities in public. Riding a bicycle is a fairly hard thing to learn and very easy to practice (from my experience), but learning to do that when everyone around is falling off them was much less of a struggle than trying…

Learning a language (spoken, not programming) is similar. If you're willing to sound like an idiot with a bad accent, constantly messing up words and parts of speech, it's easy to get immersed. If you're self conscious it's significantly more difficult.

oh yea, let me just remove this self-consciousness... wtf is wrong with people, if it was easy we would have done this. the problem is that despite our most desperate attempts, this mamallian brain is total fucking troll.

Re: The fertility of the older mind

#47

Post by pc86 »

joncampbelldev wrote: post #35
Cerium wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I guess you have to be in the right place. I'm 28, and the most junior person on my team by at least 5 years in age and 8 in experience. It is great, since I have so many people to learn from.

I'm 28 and I wish I were the most junior on the dev team. Being a "lead" developer is fun, but I wish I had more people who I can actively learn from just by being around.

There are plenty of places where the "senior" developers have more than 5-6 years of experience.

Re: The fertility of the older mind

#48

Post by Allower »

kevmo wrote: post #4

I am 33, and I have paid a lot of anecdotal attention to what seems to keep my brain fresh, i.e. able to still learn new skills at a rapid clip. Just by way of credentials: I was a successful lawyer for a few years of my 20s (rising to level of federal law clerk), but then taught myself to program and have been working as a professional programmer since shortly before my 30th birthday. Even though I am on the older s…

Why do people seem to think failure is ok? its not. its fucking failure.

Re: The fertility of the older mind

#49

Post by chousuke »

kevmo wrote: post #4

I am 33, and I have paid a lot of anecdotal attention to what seems to keep my brain fresh, i.e. able to still learn new skills at a rapid clip. Just by way of credentials: I was a successful lawyer for a few years of my 20s (rising to level of federal law clerk), but then taught myself to program and have been working as a professional programmer since shortly before my 30th birthday. Even though I am on the older s…

I'm 31, and I started learning to draw a bit over a month ago. Progress is slow, but it's been visible.

The kicker was when I realized that talent doesn't really exist; talent is built. The sort of people who are "naturally" talented at drawing and arts are likely to be people who are naturally more intuitive (rather than analytical) and will spend lots of time just grinding away at things instead of trying to understand them intellectually until they don't need to understand it anymore. Sort of like a physically fit person would just climb over an obstacle while an analytical but untrained person might get stuck trying to figure out a "smart" solution.

I consider myself much more of an analytical person, which is partly why I am learning to draw. I want to strengthen my intuitive side as well.

It doesn't hurt that the theory of drawing (which includes the physics of light, human psychology and understanding of form) is actually quite interesting. Practicing my muscle memory today also lead to a small epiphany when I realized that instead of focusing on making an ellipsis with my pen, I have to focus on my shoulder muscles and get them to move my arm elliptically and drawing then simply happens.

If you're interested in learning to draw yourself, check out drawabox.com

Re: The fertility of the older mind

#50

Post by zero_shift »

kevmo wrote: post #4

I am 33, and I have paid a lot of anecdotal attention to what seems to keep my brain fresh, i.e. able to still learn new skills at a rapid clip. Just by way of credentials: I was a successful lawyer for a few years of my 20s (rising to level of federal law clerk), but then taught myself to program and have been working as a professional programmer since shortly before my 30th birthday. Even though I am on the older s…

I'm 30 and a senior developer. But I started out with an English degree and had planned to be an academic. In the intervening years I have been a technical writer, a business analyst, a QA and even had a ill-judged stint as a recruiter. Oh, and I was a UX designer for a year, albeit not a very good one.

Now I am thinking of becoming a lawyer or civil servant, but worry that I may no longer be mentally agile enough to learn a new skillset. So I'm very glad to read this article!

Incidentally, as someone heading the opposite way to yourself, do you have any advice / warnings for a developer thinking about law?

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