The fertility of the older mind • Hacker News Board

Re: The fertility of the older mind

#11

Post by sjg007 » Wed, Sep 06, 2017, 3:55 PM UTC

gopalv wrote: post #3

> Or perhaps children are simply less inhibited and aren’t so scared about making mistakes. Struck a chord there - because I had come to the same conclusion of sorts, about my ability to practice activities in public. Riding a bicycle is a fairly hard thing to learn and very easy to practice (from my experience), but learning to do that when everyone around is falling off them was much less of a struggle than trying…

Some kids are less inhibited and scared but some aren't and they need active help to get through the anxiety. I think there is a genetic component at play because how else is that learned behavior.

Re: The fertility of the older mind

#12

Post by moretai » Wed, Sep 06, 2017, 4:16 PM UTC

koolba wrote: post #10

gopalv wrote: post #3

> Or perhaps children are simply less inhibited and aren’t so scared about making mistakes. Struck a chord there - because I had come to the same conclusion of sorts, about my ability to practice activities in public. Riding a bicycle is a fairly hard thing to learn and very easy to practice (from my experience), but learning to do that when everyone around is falling off them was much less of a struggle than trying…

Learning a language (spoken, not programming) is similar. If you're willing to sound like an idiot with a bad accent, constantly messing up words and parts of speech, it's easy to get immersed. If you're self conscious it's significantly more difficult.

Self Consciousness is the bane of my existence

Re: The fertility of the older mind

#13

Post by sireat » Wed, Sep 06, 2017, 4:23 PM UTC

I think the article paints too rosy a picture for older minds.

Yes you can learn things as you get older but the bar for your achievements gets lower and lower as you age.

Let's take chess: There are no cases of a novice starting to learn at the age of 25 and becoming a grandmaster. You need to do some of that deliberate practice at an early age. I suspect the case is the same for math,programming, violin playing etc.

Interesting thread on the topic is here: https://www.chess.com/forum/view/general/who-is-the-oldest-p...

It is not just the case of kids having more time to dedicate to a skill/hobby because there are people of independent means who pursue chess at an adult age and still fail to advance.

As you get older your ability to truly master a skill declines.

That does not mean that you can't become a productive programmer at age 60 or 70.

It just means that you will not achieve Bill Joy || Fabrice Bellard || John Carmack levels of proficiency and I suppose that is ok. :)

Re: The fertility of the older mind

#14

Post by expertentipp » Wed, Sep 06, 2017, 4:24 PM UTC

gopalv wrote: post #3

> Or perhaps children are simply less inhibited and aren’t so scared about making mistakes. Struck a chord there - because I had come to the same conclusion of sorts, about my ability to practice activities in public. Riding a bicycle is a fairly hard thing to learn and very easy to practice (from my experience), but learning to do that when everyone around is falling off them was much less of a struggle than trying…

I cannot resist from a sarcastic comment. I find it cute when Americans claim they are "learning a foreign language". Currently I live in a 5th country. Each of them had completely different language, only two were from the same language family. I had no knowledge of English until I had been ~18.

Re: The fertility of the older mind

#15

Post by skrebbel » Wed, Sep 06, 2017, 4:27 PM UTC

expertentipp wrote: post #14

gopalv wrote: post #3

> Or perhaps children are simply less inhibited and aren’t so scared about making mistakes. Struck a chord there - because I had come to the same conclusion of sorts, about my ability to practice activities in public. Riding a bicycle is a fairly hard thing to learn and very easy to practice (from my experience), but learning to do that when everyone around is falling off them was much less of a struggle than trying…

I cannot resist from a sarcastic comment. I find it cute when Americans claim they are "learning a foreign language". Currently I live in a 5th country. Each of them had completely different language, only two were from the same language family. I had no knowledge of English until I had been ~18.

For all your language skills, I'm not sure you know what sarcasm is.

Re: The fertility of the older mind

#16

Post by ConceptJunkie » Wed, Sep 06, 2017, 4:32 PM UTC

HarryHirsch wrote: post #7

adamstockdill wrote: post #2

Education has no age limit.

Hiring does, though. It's clear that a compliant workforce is considered a greater necessity than a competent one.

And a cheap workforce is considered a greater necessity than a competent or compliant one.

Re: The fertility of the older mind

#17

Post by yosito » Wed, Sep 06, 2017, 4:38 PM UTC

koolba wrote: post #10

gopalv wrote: post #3

> Or perhaps children are simply less inhibited and aren’t so scared about making mistakes. Struck a chord there - because I had come to the same conclusion of sorts, about my ability to practice activities in public. Riding a bicycle is a fairly hard thing to learn and very easy to practice (from my experience), but learning to do that when everyone around is falling off them was much less of a struggle than trying…

Learning a language (spoken, not programming) is similar. If you're willing to sound like an idiot with a bad accent, constantly messing up words and parts of speech, it's easy to get immersed. If you're self conscious it's significantly more difficult.

It's not just about being comfortable with messing up, even when you make no mistakes, if you want to lose an accent, you have to be willing to give up your sense of your own voice/"the way you talk" and try on a new voice in which you sound completely different than you're used to.

Re: The fertility of the older mind

#18

Post by flanbiscuit » Wed, Sep 06, 2017, 4:39 PM UTC

expertentipp wrote: post #14

gopalv wrote: post #3

> Or perhaps children are simply less inhibited and aren’t so scared about making mistakes. Struck a chord there - because I had come to the same conclusion of sorts, about my ability to practice activities in public. Riding a bicycle is a fairly hard thing to learn and very easy to practice (from my experience), but learning to do that when everyone around is falling off them was much less of a struggle than trying…

I cannot resist from a sarcastic comment. I find it cute when Americans claim they are "learning a foreign language". Currently I live in a 5th country. Each of them had completely different language, only two were from the same language family. I had no knowledge of English until I had been ~18.

> Currently I live in a 5th country.

You have the advantage of living in those countries and being able to immerse yourself in the language. In the US we have be more proactive about learning if we truly want to get fluent. There's less immediacy about knowing a 2nd language here. It's not great, I'm not defending it. Just listing a possible advantage Europeans have over us.

Re: The fertility of the older mind

#19

Post by Cerium » Wed, Sep 06, 2017, 4:40 PM UTC

kevmo wrote: post #6

wavefunction wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're 33, you're not on the 'older side of the programmer market.' If anyone tells you that, I suggest you take a long hard look at who they actually are.

When I was a junior programmer at 30, it sure felt like I was on the older side. :) It's a separate subject, but there is a lot of age bias in the field.

I guess you have to be in the right place. I'm 28, and the most junior person on my team by at least 5 years in age and 8 in experience. It is great, since I have so many people to learn from.

Re: The fertility of the older mind

#20

Post by fnovd » Wed, Sep 06, 2017, 4:41 PM UTC

expertentipp wrote: post #14

gopalv wrote: post #3

> Or perhaps children are simply less inhibited and aren’t so scared about making mistakes. Struck a chord there - because I had come to the same conclusion of sorts, about my ability to practice activities in public. Riding a bicycle is a fairly hard thing to learn and very easy to practice (from my experience), but learning to do that when everyone around is falling off them was much less of a struggle than trying…

I cannot resist from a sarcastic comment. I find it cute when Americans claim they are "learning a foreign language". Currently I live in a 5th country. Each of them had completely different language, only two were from the same language family. I had no knowledge of English until I had been ~18.

Keep in mind that Americans live in a country where you can drive for hundreds of miles in any direction and still end up somewhere where English is spoken. We can hop around from state to state and opportunity to opportunity without having to take the time to learn a new language. The US is not Europe.