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Lost Languages Discovered in One of the Oldest Continuously Run Libraries

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Re: Lost Languages Discovered in One of the Oldest Continuously Run Libraries

#71
post #70
post #2

Can we crowdfund a militia to protect and secure archives for digitizing in conflict zones? We are losing too much priceless history to fools over ego.

Fun fact, St. Catherine's monastery was promised protection by Mohammed (the founder of Islam). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashtiname_of_Muhammad Even the fundamentalists wouldn't go against the prophet himself...

ISIS would kill all these monks and burn the place down if given half a chance but then they would literally be going against the word of Muhammad if they did.

Re: Lost Languages Discovered in One of the Oldest Continuously Run Libraries

#72

Is it only me who thought this was going to be about a programming language! I visited St.Catherine's before, you can get there pretty easy from Sharm el-Sheikh in the Sinai on your way to climb mount Sinai. you can go there for sunrise, it involves an early rise and a bit of a hike but it's beautiful at sunrise. St. Catherine's is also host to what is considered the burning bush. bu https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bur…

Someday in a Vernor Vinge-ish future, software archeologists could discover a dead programming language that is being used at the core of their ancient starship's libraries.

I'm curious what we would even use to run a true starship that needs to be 100% reliable for decades. Maybe Rust will be a good candidate some day? I think it needs to have that speed & safety, but be much higher level.

Re: Lost Languages Discovered in One of the Oldest Continuously Run Libraries

#73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Someday in a Vernor Vinge-ish future, software archeologists could discover a dead programming language that is being used at the core of their ancient starship's libraries.

I'm curious what we would even use to run a true starship that needs to be 100% reliable for decades. Maybe Rust will be a good candidate some day? I think it needs to have that speed & safety, but be much higher level.

I doubt the language picked will have significant impact; reliability will mostly depend on the extensiveness/correctness of simulations. And presumably with sufficient coverage (and at the scale, we require it) memory bugs will be the least of our safety worries

Re: Lost Languages Discovered in One of the Oldest Continuously Run Libraries

#74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Someday in a Vernor Vinge-ish future, software archeologists could discover a dead programming language that is being used at the core of their ancient starship's libraries.

I'm curious what we would even use to run a true starship that needs to be 100% reliable for decades. Maybe Rust will be a good candidate some day? I think it needs to have that speed & safety, but be much higher level.

I'm guessing full AI that can maintain itself. Vernor Vinge assumes the singularity hasn't and will never happen, but most fanciful and pragmatic visions of the far future don't make that assumption.

Re: Lost Languages Discovered in One of the Oldest Continuously Run Libraries

#75
post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You might only discover that something had value in hindsight. Discriminating between what's a priceless heirloom and trivial garbage can be very difficult. Storage is cheap nowadays, if we can afford to archive petabytes of cat videos I'm sure we can collect endangered cultural artifacts. Who knows what we could've learned from the destroyed works of the library of Alexandria? All those things we don't know we don't…

> You might only discover that something had value in hindsight. I completely agree. But we have data about many, many languages, lost and current. The chances that those newly discovered ones bring something more than "oh that's nice and interesting" on the table are quite weak. > Who knows what we could've learned from the destroyed works of the library of Alexandria? This is a totally different scale. As I say, we…

"But we have data about many, many languages, lost and current. The chances that those newly discovered ones bring something more than "oh that's nice and interesting" on the table are quite weak."

I can imagine someone saying this in the early 20th century. And then the decipherment of Hittite and discovery of Tocharian completely rewrote the history of the Near East and Central Asia. Just a few years ago, Werner and Vajda’s work on Ket finally connected a Siberian population with a Native American one. In fact, I could really go on for hours about how much Central and Northeast Asia history has been drastically revised in just the last 20–30 years from this kind of work.

Digitizing manuscripts and analyzing data collected from little-known languages is one of the easiest and most cost-effective ways (especially compared to digs) to gain major historical insights.

Re: Lost Languages Discovered in One of the Oldest Continuously Run Libraries

#76
post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To be clear, if the OP proposed intervention to save lives, you would no less call him a colonialist.

Please don't put words in my mouth.

That's a rich request in light of your previous comment.

Re: Lost Languages Discovered in One of the Oldest Continuously Run Libraries

#77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This comment is a gem of nationalist thought. When the Bamiyan buddhas were dynamited, exactly whose culture were the Taliban "preserving"? It is entirely reasonable to believe that culture and history have an importance independent of petty, local squabbles. Crowd funding militia may well be questionable but to demean the sentiment as colonialist is pointlessly insulting.

> When the Bamiyan buddhas were dynamited, exactly whose culture were the Taliban "preserving"? Their own. > It is entirely reasonable to believe that culture and history have an importance independent of petty, local squabbles. Calling it “reasonable” elevates it to a level of objective neutrality to which it is not entitled. That view is simply it's own set of cultural values , which, while perhaps fairly widesprea…

Is the scientific method just a cultural value?

Re: Lost Languages Discovered in One of the Oldest Continuously Run Libraries

#78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nowadays? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Destruction_of_the_Library_of_...

"During his reign of the eastern part of the Empire (40–30 BC), Mark Antony plundered the second largest library in the world (at Pergamon) and presented the collection as a gift to Cleopatra as a replacement for the books lost to Caesar's fire." Oh, Romans

To be fair, he was one of the more colorful characters in the history of the empire. That entire generation is fascinating.

Re: Lost Languages Discovered in One of the Oldest Continuously Run Libraries

#79
post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> When the Bamiyan buddhas were dynamited, exactly whose culture were the Taliban "preserving"? Their own. > It is entirely reasonable to believe that culture and history have an importance independent of petty, local squabbles. Calling it “reasonable” elevates it to a level of objective neutrality to which it is not entitled. That view is simply it's own set of cultural values , which, while perhaps fairly widesprea…

Is the scientific method just a cultural value?

> Is the scientific method just a cultural value?

The value attached to particular outputs, such as those that might be supported by preservation of cultural artifacts, is unmistakably a cultural value.

Re: Lost Languages Discovered in One of the Oldest Continuously Run Libraries

#80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It can be grease for the wheels of appropriation, sure. And that kind of universalization can be a further cultural attack on minority peoples—saying that not even the language shared between mother and child is the legitimate domain of the people. But archaeological remains aren't really necessarily an artifact of the culture that lives there now. Sometimes there is a continuous cultural tradition that claims them,…

"We" as outsiders only lose the potential of having that culture shared with us. If your co-worker wrecks his car, you haven't lost the ability to drive it. You never had it. He might have chosen to let you drive it, or he might have chosen to let you ride in it, but you haven't lost anything just because the car might have been useful to you. Sympathy is the appropriate response. Being ready to help people defend th…

Culture is a consensus. It just so happens that the region of culture nearest to me values the practice of sifting through obscure, niche, or distant sub-cultures for stuff that may be temporarily adopted in isolation, yielding social status points for the discoverer and early adopters.

The destruction of cultural artifacts previously unknown by the local mainstream is thus deplored, not because it had any real intrinsic value, but because it is no longer available for someone to show off and say, "look at this cool old thing that I found, that none of you culturally ignorant heathens have ever seen before."

As N-thousand-years-old artifacts are a scarce resource, whenever some hairy barbarian burns a book that no one cares about, he deprives some hipster of a critical opportunity to gain prestige in front of their friends for about 20 minutes.

Now, some people may become upset that elements of what they perceive as their own culture are essentially being used as toys and amusements for someone else's culture, but it is an essential element of culture that it cannot be controlled in such a way that such uses could be prevented. Culture is broadcast. You put something out there, and it is either adopted and rebroadcast, or it fades into obscurity. Once it is part of the culture, it isn't fully yours any more.

There is no protection for culture. If the consensus changes the meaning of something you liked to something you don't, you just have to move on to liking something else. If someone manages to make rompers for grown men fashionable, you just suck it up and wait patiently for the fad to die. You don't have to wear one, unless you want to participate in that part of the culture. And you don't have to rescue one from a thrift shop as a cultural artifact after it goes away. If you did, it would just be some thing to stick in a museum, so future visitors could see it and giggle, say "hmmmm", or vow "never again".

Not all cultural artifacts are worthy of "saving". For all we know, those unique manuscripts that might be put to the torch when the invaders march in are someone else's cultural equivalent of a Hitler Pepe meme or a man-romper silkscreened with Kim Jong-Il's face at 500% actual size.

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