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Lost Languages Discovered in One of the Oldest Continuously Run Libraries

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Re: Lost Languages Discovered in One of the Oldest Continuously Run Libraries

#61

Post by vgh »

FroshKiller wrote: post #40
Majestic121 wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I understand your point about invasion and imperialism, but I strongly disagree with your opinion that people from a country "own" the culture of this country. National cultures and cultural artifacts are part of the human culture as a whole, and as such they belong to mankind. There's hardly any good justification to destroy pieces of human culture, and misplaced nationalism definitely is not of them.

The idea that all cultures belong to "mankind" is grease for the wheels of appropriation. People have a right to choose what they share with others. There's a certain phrase that people from my county use to express surprise and approval. It isn't widely known. When I use it around neighbors, they know what I'm conveying, and it identifies us as kindred. I could tell you what it is, and you might like it. You might e…

"Shibboleth"? Cultural appropriation!

Re: Lost Languages Discovered in One of the Oldest Continuously Run Libraries

#62

Post by lucozade »

FroshKiller wrote: post #56
lucozade wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don't think you understand what nationalism is. I was misusing the term nationalist in a literary device in order to deliberately mimic your misuse of the word colonialist. I wasn't so condescending as to assume you didn't know what colonialist meant so I assumed its misuse was deliberate too. > my reply was thoughtful, not pointlessly insulting. My mistake. It's rare to see colonialist used as a term of endearme…

As I've said elsewhere in this thread, it's that you consider culture in general to be "collective," and that's a dangerous idea. I'm pretty okay with the idea of sharing my culture with you, but unless you're one of my people, you certainly don't have any claim on it.

What a scary notion.

I'm Egyptian Christian descent (genuinely, my father was from Alexandria).

Do I get a golden ticket? If I want to set fire to the library are we good with this as its "my people"? What about if I asked an external power in to preserve it?

But wait, I'm not Coptic. Are they not my people now? Am I a colonialist for wanting to preserve the library because of the church my old man attended?

What could possibly go wrong with cultural ghettoisation?

Re: Lost Languages Discovered in One of the Oldest Continuously Run Libraries

#63

Post by seanmcdirmid »

CharlesDodgson wrote: post #28

Is it only me who thought this was going to be about a programming language! I visited St.Catherine's before, you can get there pretty easy from Sharm el-Sheikh in the Sinai on your way to climb mount Sinai. you can go there for sunrise, it involves an early rise and a bit of a hike but it's beautiful at sunrise. St. Catherine's is also host to what is considered the burning bush. bu https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bur…

Someday in a Vernor Vinge-ish future, software archeologists could discover a dead programming language that is being used at the core of their ancient starship's libraries.

Re: Lost Languages Discovered in One of the Oldest Continuously Run Libraries

#64

Post by seanmcdirmid »

damnfine wrote: post #2

Can we crowdfund a militia to protect and secure archives for digitizing in conflict zones? We are losing too much priceless history to fools over ego.

Or we could fund adventurer archeologists like Indiana Jones to protect the artifacts by stealing them. Either way, we've probably stepped off into the realm of unworkable fiction.

Re: Lost Languages Discovered in One of the Oldest Continuously Run Libraries

#65

Post by monocasa »

cm2187 wrote: post #30
damnfine wrote: post #2

Can we crowdfund a militia to protect and secure archives for digitizing in conflict zones? We are losing too much priceless history to fools over ego.

It's actually an interesting debate. Do we care more about a book or a statue than a human life? Shouldn't these resources be protecting the populations first before worrying about books?

From a totally cold, unfeeling standpoint: people are self replicating, ancient artifacts are not.

Re: Lost Languages Discovered in One of the Oldest Continuously Run Libraries

#66

Post by adrianN »

FroshKiller wrote: post #47
fipar wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As someone from a country who has been a colony of a handful of other countries during its history, I understand and can relate to your argument. Also, as someone from a continent that still has millitias funded by other countries, I find the idea of funding a militia appalling, specially if the purpose is not to at least try and save people, but to save cultural artifacts ... That said, I think you are oversimplifyi…

You're right that I simplified heterogeneity, but my point wasn't so much that the preservation or destruction of culture should be left to a population of certain ownership--it's that these things should not be left to mercenaries hired by outsiders with a sense of global "human" entitlement. Ownership and responsibility are really complex topics. The notion that you shouldn't rent a bunch of goons to steal books fr…

The notion becomes a lot more complex if those books are the only remaining copies.

Re: Lost Languages Discovered in One of the Oldest Continuously Run Libraries

#67

Post by weberc2 »

FroshKiller wrote: post #32
cm2187 wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's actually an interesting debate. Do we care more about a book or a statue than a human life? Shouldn't these resources be protecting the populations first before worrying about books?

The fruit of the Other's work--their research, their art, their innovations--is necessarily worth more than the Other's lives to the colonialist. It's obvious that lives (and memory) are worth more to anyone with compassion who can recognize other people's humanity. That is only a debate and only interesting if you engage in it to remind someone with a colonialist mindset of their own shared humanity.

To be clear, if the OP proposed intervention to save lives, you would no less call him a colonialist.

Re: Lost Languages Discovered in One of the Oldest Continuously Run Libraries

#68

Post by FroshKiller »

weberc2 wrote: post #67
FroshKiller wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The fruit of the Other's work--their research, their art, their innovations--is necessarily worth more than the Other's lives to the colonialist. It's obvious that lives (and memory) are worth more to anyone with compassion who can recognize other people's humanity. That is only a debate and only interesting if you engage in it to remind someone with a colonialist mindset of their own shared humanity.

To be clear, if the OP proposed intervention to save lives, you would no less call him a colonialist.

Please don't put words in my mouth.

Re: Lost Languages Discovered in One of the Oldest Continuously Run Libraries

#69

Post by keyboardtyper »

FroshKiller wrote: post #56
lucozade wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don't think you understand what nationalism is. I was misusing the term nationalist in a literary device in order to deliberately mimic your misuse of the word colonialist. I wasn't so condescending as to assume you didn't know what colonialist meant so I assumed its misuse was deliberate too. > my reply was thoughtful, not pointlessly insulting. My mistake. It's rare to see colonialist used as a term of endearme…

As I've said elsewhere in this thread, it's that you consider culture in general to be "collective," and that's a dangerous idea. I'm pretty okay with the idea of sharing my culture with you, but unless you're one of my people, you certainly don't have any claim on it.

> "...but unless you're one of my people..."

This is complicated. Are we to assume that we aren't in a culture group unless we are born from a group's member or born in a specific location. If a culture resonates with an individual that doesn't fit into the "culture group" definition, can they never see the culture as their own? It definitely seems to bring into question what the definition of culture is and when is a culture added to the collective. Isn't that what sharing does?

Aren't there arguments about writers writing books and readers interpreting the story in their own way? The story is now everybody's, right? I do feel the danger in the idea, but it also feels sort of correct.

Re: Lost Languages Discovered in One of the Oldest Continuously Run Libraries

#70

Post by Mikeb85 »

damnfine wrote: post #2

Can we crowdfund a militia to protect and secure archives for digitizing in conflict zones? We are losing too much priceless history to fools over ego.

Fun fact, St. Catherine's monastery was promised protection by Mohammed (the founder of Islam). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashtiname_of_Muhammad

Even the fundamentalists wouldn't go against the prophet himself...

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