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Lost Languages Discovered in One of the Oldest Continuously Run Libraries

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Re: Lost Languages Discovered in One of the Oldest Continuously Run Libraries

#51

Post by pbhjpbhj »

FroshKiller wrote: post #46
pbhjpbhj wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I couldn't disagree more. You lose nothing if I too wear a tartan pattern, say. You're just being mean. FWIW it's a stage toddlers go through, not wanting other's to use what they use or do what they do. Assuming you're USAmerican, USA has "appropriated" the scientific culture of Russia by also going to space; appropriated the beer making culture of Europe; appropriated the Television/Computer culture of Britain; the…

Did you miss this bit? "The transmission of culture between peoples should be based on a mutual interest in sharing and learning, not some sense of global entitlement."

No. Define "mutual interest"?

If something in your culture benefits me, why does my use of it have to be dependent on that also benefiting you? Indeed if its a loss for a small people group but a benefit globally then surely that's a positive thing.

Would you for example argue lack of distinctiveness as a negative thing, in which case you could be blocking all sharing by demanding "mutual interest".

Re: Lost Languages Discovered in One of the Oldest Continuously Run Libraries

#52

Post by lucozade »

FroshKiller wrote: post #38
lucozade wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This comment is a gem of nationalist thought. When the Bamiyan buddhas were dynamited, exactly whose culture were the Taliban "preserving"? It is entirely reasonable to believe that culture and history have an importance independent of petty, local squabbles. Crowd funding militia may well be questionable but to demean the sentiment as colonialist is pointlessly insulting.

I don't think you understand what nationalism is. I admit that my reply could be read as a tacit endorsement of tribalism, but there's nothing nationalist about it. You should not presuppose that conflicts are "petty, local squabbles." Minimizing language like that reinforces the mindset that the mighty are justified in interfering in the sovereign destiny of a people. Anyway, my reply was thoughtful, not pointlessly…

> I don't think you understand what nationalism is.

I was misusing the term nationalist in a literary device in order to deliberately mimic your misuse of the word colonialist. I wasn't so condescending as to assume you didn't know what colonialist meant so I assumed its misuse was deliberate too.

> my reply was thoughtful, not pointlessly insulting.

My mistake. It's rare to see colonialist used as a term of endearment.

> sovereign destiny / sovereign rights

I guess this is the meat of the point. See I don't believe that just because someone in temporarily in charge of a country that they should have carte blanche to do whatever they fancy. Now, in the case of the Coptic monasteries in the Sinai, there is no threat from the present government. If, say, the Sinai Insurgency escalated and the monasteries were under threat, it would be entirely appropriate, in my view, to pressure Egypt to do something about it.

I can't envisage a realistic situation where external forces would be appropriate in this case. I do believe that it is both right and proper to care about, and if necessary act for, our fragile collective cultural heritage. If that makes me a colonialist in your eyes then so be it. I've been called worse.

Re: Lost Languages Discovered in One of the Oldest Continuously Run Libraries

#53

Post by FroshKiller »

FroshKiller wrote: post #46
pbhjpbhj wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I couldn't disagree more. You lose nothing if I too wear a tartan pattern, say. You're just being mean. FWIW it's a stage toddlers go through, not wanting other's to use what they use or do what they do. Assuming you're USAmerican, USA has "appropriated" the scientific culture of Russia by also going to space; appropriated the beer making culture of Europe; appropriated the Television/Computer culture of Britain; the…

Did you miss this bit? "The transmission of culture between peoples should be based on a mutual interest in sharing and learning, not some sense of global entitlement."

I don't want to be rude, pbhjpbhj, but I'm honestly not sure how to respond to that. I don't think I'm the right person to have that talk with you, and even if I am, this certainly doesn't seem like the right place or time.

Re: Lost Languages Discovered in One of the Oldest Continuously Run Libraries

#54

Post by FroshKiller »

pbhjpbhj wrote: post #49
FroshKiller wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think you understand what nationalism is. I admit that my reply could be read as a tacit endorsement of tribalism, but there's nothing nationalist about it. You should not presuppose that conflicts are "petty, local squabbles." Minimizing language like that reinforces the mindset that the mighty are justified in interfering in the sovereign destiny of a people. Anyway, my reply was thoughtful, not pointlessly…

Whose conception of sovereign rights. Sovereignty is the historic acquisition of power through violence in all cases that spring to mind (W. European bias). How far back do you go. Does Russia now have sovereignty over Crimean history?

Please note that I've taken care to say "people" rather than "nations" or "government." People organize themselves into all sorts of forms with all sorts of power. I get that sovereignty is a particularly loaded term, but what I'm getting at is that culture is a product of a people, and a people is entitled to determine its own fate with the powers available to it.

Re: Lost Languages Discovered in One of the Oldest Continuously Run Libraries

#55

Post by panglott »

FroshKiller wrote: post #40
Majestic121 wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I understand your point about invasion and imperialism, but I strongly disagree with your opinion that people from a country "own" the culture of this country. National cultures and cultural artifacts are part of the human culture as a whole, and as such they belong to mankind. There's hardly any good justification to destroy pieces of human culture, and misplaced nationalism definitely is not of them.

The idea that all cultures belong to "mankind" is grease for the wheels of appropriation. People have a right to choose what they share with others. There's a certain phrase that people from my county use to express surprise and approval. It isn't widely known. When I use it around neighbors, they know what I'm conveying, and it identifies us as kindred. I could tell you what it is, and you might like it. You might e…

It can be grease for the wheels of appropriation, sure. And that kind of universalization can be a further cultural attack on minority peoples—saying that not even the language shared between mother and child is the legitimate domain of the people.

But archaeological remains aren't really necessarily an artifact of the culture that lives there now. Sometimes there is a continuous cultural tradition that claims them, and sometimes not. The Mississippian mounds of the midwestern US aren't an artifact of the U.S. of A., for example—they were in danger of being looted by Americans more than anything, in the 19th century certainly.

And much as an international militia for the defense of archaeological remains is a bad idea, I think the OP was talking more about ISIS blowing up the Temple of Baalshamin in Palmyra or the Taliban blowing up Buddhist statues in Afghanistan. The locals are likely descended from the people who built those structures, but we do all lose something. These religious structures were not shibboleths, but public structures into which people poured their creativity, their personality, their values, their traditions to communicate them within and beyond their community. I am not a Christian, but I am moved by the Sistine Chapel—this was Michaelangelo's goal. I am moved by the Hagia Sophia, by the Ishtar Gate.

If the Romans decide to blow up the Vatican, or the Canadians invade Missouri and carry off the artifacts of Cahokia, it's a loss to more than the residents of Rome and St. Louis. Even if (as with Palmyra &c.) it's locals who object most strongly and are the most injured.

Re: Lost Languages Discovered in One of the Oldest Continuously Run Libraries

#56

Post by FroshKiller »

lucozade wrote: post #52
FroshKiller wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think you understand what nationalism is. I admit that my reply could be read as a tacit endorsement of tribalism, but there's nothing nationalist about it. You should not presuppose that conflicts are "petty, local squabbles." Minimizing language like that reinforces the mindset that the mighty are justified in interfering in the sovereign destiny of a people. Anyway, my reply was thoughtful, not pointlessly…

> I don't think you understand what nationalism is. I was misusing the term nationalist in a literary device in order to deliberately mimic your misuse of the word colonialist. I wasn't so condescending as to assume you didn't know what colonialist meant so I assumed its misuse was deliberate too. > my reply was thoughtful, not pointlessly insulting. My mistake. It's rare to see colonialist used as a term of endearme…

As I've said elsewhere in this thread, it's that you consider culture in general to be "collective," and that's a dangerous idea. I'm pretty okay with the idea of sharing my culture with you, but unless you're one of my people, you certainly don't have any claim on it.

Re: Lost Languages Discovered in One of the Oldest Continuously Run Libraries

#57

Post by dragonwriter »

lucozade wrote: post #35
FroshKiller wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This comment is a gem of colonialist thought. Those "conflict zones" are also generally the sovereign territory of the people who live there, who are generally one half of the "fools" you mentioned (their neighbors being generally the other half). The "ego" they have is generally a desire to keep their sovereign territory--their homelands, which are frequently the same places in which their ancestors produced the "ar…

This comment is a gem of nationalist thought. When the Bamiyan buddhas were dynamited, exactly whose culture were the Taliban "preserving"? It is entirely reasonable to believe that culture and history have an importance independent of petty, local squabbles. Crowd funding militia may well be questionable but to demean the sentiment as colonialist is pointlessly insulting.

> When the Bamiyan buddhas were dynamited, exactly whose culture were the Taliban "preserving"?

Their own.

> It is entirely reasonable to believe that culture and history have an importance independent of petty, local squabbles.

Calling it “reasonable” elevates it to a level of objective neutrality to which it is not entitled. That view is simply it's own set of cultural values, which, while perhaps fairly widespread at the moment, are no more universal or grounded in reason than any others.

Re: Lost Languages Discovered in One of the Oldest Continuously Run Libraries

#58

Post by panglott »

simias wrote: post #21
sametmax wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Priceless to whom ? How many hindsights are we really going to gain from that ? How many people are even going to benefit from it. No, how many will even hear about it or will effectively access this ? We have tendency to consider that all knowledge is precious. That all information, especially from the past, should be treasured. It's sounds more anchored in a collector mindset that in any real assessment of the valu…

You might only discover that something had value in hindsight. Discriminating between what's a priceless heirloom and trivial garbage can be very difficult. Storage is cheap nowadays, if we can afford to archive petabytes of cat videos I'm sure we can collect endangered cultural artifacts. Who knows what we could've learned from the destroyed works of the library of Alexandria? All those things we don't know we don't…

This is in fact an article about discoveries in palimpsets, where an older manuscript was erased and used to write a new manuscript over it. Lots of similar discoveries in papyri re-used to wrap mummies, as well. It's the ancient equivalent of re-using old newsprint as trivial garbage, but a valuable discovery today.

Re: Lost Languages Discovered in One of the Oldest Continuously Run Libraries

#59

Post by ZoeZoeBee »

pbhjpbhj wrote: post #49
FroshKiller wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think you understand what nationalism is. I admit that my reply could be read as a tacit endorsement of tribalism, but there's nothing nationalist about it. You should not presuppose that conflicts are "petty, local squabbles." Minimizing language like that reinforces the mindset that the mighty are justified in interfering in the sovereign destiny of a people. Anyway, my reply was thoughtful, not pointlessly…

Whose conception of sovereign rights. Sovereignty is the historic acquisition of power through violence in all cases that spring to mind (W. European bias). How far back do you go. Does Russia now have sovereignty over Crimean history?

FYI, Crimea has been a part of Russia for over 200 years, except for the post Soviet Union period, which in and of itself was the result of a symbolic transfer of Crimea to the Ukranian SSR in 1954, marking the 300th year of the Ukraine under Russian rule. A move, which was supposed to have no strategic consequence, until the Soviet Union broke up and twenty years later NATO attempted to bring the Ukraine into their fold.

Of course Russia could not allow their warm water port to fall under NATO jurisdiction

Re: Lost Languages Discovered in One of the Oldest Continuously Run Libraries

#60

Post by FroshKiller »

panglott wrote: post #55
FroshKiller wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The idea that all cultures belong to "mankind" is grease for the wheels of appropriation. People have a right to choose what they share with others. There's a certain phrase that people from my county use to express surprise and approval. It isn't widely known. When I use it around neighbors, they know what I'm conveying, and it identifies us as kindred. I could tell you what it is, and you might like it. You might e…

It can be grease for the wheels of appropriation, sure. And that kind of universalization can be a further cultural attack on minority peoples—saying that not even the language shared between mother and child is the legitimate domain of the people. But archaeological remains aren't really necessarily an artifact of the culture that lives there now. Sometimes there is a continuous cultural tradition that claims them,…

"We" as outsiders only lose the potential of having that culture shared with us. If your co-worker wrecks his car, you haven't lost the ability to drive it. You never had it. He might have chosen to let you drive it, or he might have chosen to let you ride in it, but you haven't lost anything just because the car might have been useful to you.

Sympathy is the appropriate response. Being ready to help people defend their culture in a conflict is fine, being ready to help people preserve culture before a conflict is fine, being available to help people recover what they can after a conflict is fine, but undermining people to preserve your expectation of value (like by hiring mercenaries to secure archives in a conflict zone) is not. That is an important difference.

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