Lost Languages Discovered in One of the Oldest Continuously Run Libraries • Hacker News Board

Re: Lost Languages Discovered in One of the Oldest Continuously Run Libraries

#31

Post by FroshKiller » Wed, Sep 06, 2017, 11:21 AM UTC

damnfine wrote: post #2

Can we crowdfund a militia to protect and secure archives for digitizing in conflict zones? We are losing too much priceless history to fools over ego.

This comment is a gem of colonialist thought.

Those "conflict zones" are also generally the sovereign territory of the people who live there, who are generally one half of the "fools" you mentioned (their neighbors being generally the other half).

The "ego" they have is generally a desire to keep their sovereign territory--their homelands, which are frequently the same places in which their ancestors produced the "archives" you want to "protect and secure."

Those people have a right to decide what to do about the destruction of their cultural artifacts, because they are people and have agency. They can fight, they can ask for help from their allies, they can do any number of things.

If they don't prioritize the preservation of their culture, that's unfortunate, but it's also their business. If they decide to destroy artifacts of their culture rather than let them fall into invaders' hands (sound familiar?), that's tragic, but it's still their business.

Your suspicion of value in their cultural output does not entitle you to pay armed men to swoop in and take their "priceless history," no matter how noble you think your intentions are.

Re: Lost Languages Discovered in One of the Oldest Continuously Run Libraries

#32

Post by FroshKiller » Wed, Sep 06, 2017, 11:24 AM UTC

cm2187 wrote: post #30

damnfine wrote: post #2

Can we crowdfund a militia to protect and secure archives for digitizing in conflict zones? We are losing too much priceless history to fools over ego.

It's actually an interesting debate. Do we care more about a book or a statue than a human life? Shouldn't these resources be protecting the populations first before worrying about books?

The fruit of the Other's work--their research, their art, their innovations--is necessarily worth more than the Other's lives to the colonialist.

It's obvious that lives (and memory) are worth more to anyone with compassion who can recognize other people's humanity. That is only a debate and only interesting if you engage in it to remind someone with a colonialist mindset of their own shared humanity.

Re: Lost Languages Discovered in One of the Oldest Continuously Run Libraries

#33

Post by Ensorceled » Wed, Sep 06, 2017, 11:25 AM UTC

cm2187 wrote: post #30

damnfine wrote: post #2

Can we crowdfund a militia to protect and secure archives for digitizing in conflict zones? We are losing too much priceless history to fools over ego.

It's actually an interesting debate. Do we care more about a book or a statue than a human life? Shouldn't these resources be protecting the populations first before worrying about books?

How much of your personal wealth have you spent saving these people? 50%? 80%? How do you have time to post on HN when you should be tirelessly working as an activist?

We need to stop shaming people for trying to do good because there is something else we believe is a better cause.

Well, except people who think they are "helping" by forming "prayer circles" to help with disasters or take crates and crates of bibles to starving people. Shame the hell out of them.

Re: Lost Languages Discovered in One of the Oldest Continuously Run Libraries

#34

Post by vortico » Wed, Sep 06, 2017, 11:45 AM UTC

CharlesDodgson wrote: post #28

Is it only me who thought this was going to be about a programming language! I visited St.Catherine's before, you can get there pretty easy from Sharm el-Sheikh in the Sinai on your way to climb mount Sinai. you can go there for sunrise, it involves an early rise and a bit of a hike but it's beautiful at sunrise. St. Catherine's is also host to what is considered the burning bush. bu https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bur…

Before I clicked the link, I thought it would be about the dead WEB language invented by Donald Knuth to author TeX, which is one of the longest running software libraries in the open source world. :-)

Re: Lost Languages Discovered in One of the Oldest Continuously Run Libraries

#35

Post by lucozade » Wed, Sep 06, 2017, 11:57 AM UTC

FroshKiller wrote: post #31

damnfine wrote: post #2

Can we crowdfund a militia to protect and secure archives for digitizing in conflict zones? We are losing too much priceless history to fools over ego.

This comment is a gem of colonialist thought. Those "conflict zones" are also generally the sovereign territory of the people who live there, who are generally one half of the "fools" you mentioned (their neighbors being generally the other half). The "ego" they have is generally a desire to keep their sovereign territory--their homelands, which are frequently the same places in which their ancestors produced the "ar…

This comment is a gem of nationalist thought.

When the Bamiyan buddhas were dynamited, exactly whose culture were the Taliban "preserving"?

It is entirely reasonable to believe that culture and history have an importance independent of petty, local squabbles. Crowd funding militia may well be questionable but to demean the sentiment as colonialist is pointlessly insulting.

Re: Lost Languages Discovered in One of the Oldest Continuously Run Libraries

#36

Post by vortico » Wed, Sep 06, 2017, 12:01 PM UTC

FroshKiller wrote: post #31

damnfine wrote: post #2

Can we crowdfund a militia to protect and secure archives for digitizing in conflict zones? We are losing too much priceless history to fools over ego.

This comment is a gem of colonialist thought. Those "conflict zones" are also generally the sovereign territory of the people who live there, who are generally one half of the "fools" you mentioned (their neighbors being generally the other half). The "ego" they have is generally a desire to keep their sovereign territory--their homelands, which are frequently the same places in which their ancestors produced the "ar…

This suggests many questions surrounding rights and ownership of culture.

If an object (informational work like a book, ancient artifact, etc.) is considered to be owned by the public, does a subset of the public have the right to destroy the object?

If an object has a cultural association, say of Egypt, is the public ownership of the object only those in Egyptian culture? Do Egyptian-Americans count under this ownership for example?

If the object is thousands of years old, is the ownership the heirs of the creator, if it is possible to track the descendants down? Is the ownership those who call nearby locations their home? Is the ownership all citizens of the country the object was created in, or currently resides in? Is the ownership simply the creator and nothing else? Or are ancient artifacts owned equally by all humans on earth?

These are not very straightforward questions. It is not a matter of their business and our business when it's difficult to place ownership of a cultural object.

Re: Lost Languages Discovered in One of the Oldest Continuously Run Libraries

#37

Post by dzdt » Wed, Sep 06, 2017, 12:05 PM UTC

There is a longer, more detailed article on this work at https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2017/08/sinai-pe....

The articles are similar enough they must originate from the same press release, but the Atlantic's take adds more.

Re: Lost Languages Discovered in One of the Oldest Continuously Run Libraries

#38

Post by FroshKiller » Wed, Sep 06, 2017, 12:09 PM UTC

lucozade wrote: post #35

FroshKiller wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This comment is a gem of colonialist thought. Those "conflict zones" are also generally the sovereign territory of the people who live there, who are generally one half of the "fools" you mentioned (their neighbors being generally the other half). The "ego" they have is generally a desire to keep their sovereign territory--their homelands, which are frequently the same places in which their ancestors produced the "ar…

This comment is a gem of nationalist thought. When the Bamiyan buddhas were dynamited, exactly whose culture were the Taliban "preserving"? It is entirely reasonable to believe that culture and history have an importance independent of petty, local squabbles. Crowd funding militia may well be questionable but to demean the sentiment as colonialist is pointlessly insulting.

I don't think you understand what nationalism is. I admit that my reply could be read as a tacit endorsement of tribalism, but there's nothing nationalist about it.

You should not presuppose that conflicts are "petty, local squabbles." Minimizing language like that reinforces the mindset that the mighty are justified in interfering in the sovereign destiny of a people.

Anyway, my reply was thoughtful, not pointlessly insulting. If you'd like to engage on this beyond the invocation of the Taliban bogeyman, I'm happy to. But if you're just gonna presume that I'm equating the exercise of sovereign rights with wholesale destruction, I'm not interested.

Re: Lost Languages Discovered in One of the Oldest Continuously Run Libraries

#39

Post by Majestic121 » Wed, Sep 06, 2017, 12:12 PM UTC

FroshKiller wrote: post #31

damnfine wrote: post #2

Can we crowdfund a militia to protect and secure archives for digitizing in conflict zones? We are losing too much priceless history to fools over ego.

This comment is a gem of colonialist thought. Those "conflict zones" are also generally the sovereign territory of the people who live there, who are generally one half of the "fools" you mentioned (their neighbors being generally the other half). The "ego" they have is generally a desire to keep their sovereign territory--their homelands, which are frequently the same places in which their ancestors produced the "ar…

I understand your point about invasion and imperialism, but I strongly disagree with your opinion that people from a country "own" the culture of this country.

National cultures and cultural artifacts are part of the human culture as a whole, and as such they belong to mankind.

There's hardly any good justification to destroy pieces of human culture, and misplaced nationalism definitely is not of them.

Re: Lost Languages Discovered in One of the Oldest Continuously Run Libraries

#40

Post by FroshKiller » Wed, Sep 06, 2017, 12:34 PM UTC

Majestic121 wrote: post #39

FroshKiller wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This comment is a gem of colonialist thought. Those "conflict zones" are also generally the sovereign territory of the people who live there, who are generally one half of the "fools" you mentioned (their neighbors being generally the other half). The "ego" they have is generally a desire to keep their sovereign territory--their homelands, which are frequently the same places in which their ancestors produced the "ar…

I understand your point about invasion and imperialism, but I strongly disagree with your opinion that people from a country "own" the culture of this country. National cultures and cultural artifacts are part of the human culture as a whole, and as such they belong to mankind. There's hardly any good justification to destroy pieces of human culture, and misplaced nationalism definitely is not of them.

The idea that all cultures belong to "mankind" is grease for the wheels of appropriation. People have a right to choose what they share with others.

There's a certain phrase that people from my county use to express surprise and approval. It isn't widely known. When I use it around neighbors, they know what I'm conveying, and it identifies us as kindred.

I could tell you what it is, and you might like it. You might even start using it just because you like the sound of it. And it might become very popular, and soon, all kinds of people from all kinds of places might bond over its use. Hell, people might even make T-shirts.

But I choose not to. It's a shibboleth for me and the folks back home, and that use is valuable to us. You don't have the right to force me to share it.

If I wanted to explore its etymology, survey exactly how widely it's used, or argue that it's related to a similar phrase in a nearby region, I could certainly do those things and might choose to. But if I don't, human culture as a whole doesn't get a crack at it just because I passed on the opportunity.

It's a bit of a contrived example, because I'm not talking about the Bhagavad Gita here, but I hope you see what I'm getting at. The transmission of culture between peoples should be based on a mutual interest in sharing and learning, not some sense of global entitlement.