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Bitcoin's Golden Future

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Re: Bitcoin's Golden Future

#101

Post by sbenitoj »

simias wrote: post #61
sbenitoj wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a common misconception, the Bitcoin network would not be harmed by governments seizing control of Bitcoin mining operations, there are many options in such of an event. All seizing mining would do is prove how resilient Bitcoin is to government efforts and further decentralize the currency. Also, implicit in your statement is the belief that miners control the network, which is not true. They're an important…

>This is a common misconception, the Bitcoin network would not be harmed by governments seizing control of Bitcoin mining operations, there are many options in such of an event You'll have to give us some sources for that I'm afraid, it's not at all obvious from my point of view. Should China merely shutdown the miners the disruption shouldn't be too massive and only temporary while the difficulty adjusts to the new…

Here are two short talks (both ~7 mins) by Andreas Antonopoulos related to this:

Bitcoin Q&A: Could governments take over exchanges?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9PrJQeKl9w4

Bitcoin Q&A: Will governments ban cryptocurrencies?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LIQkuF_I5Xo

Re: Bitcoin's Golden Future

#102

Post by trgv »

sbenitoj wrote: post #100
trgv wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with you that there's no such thing as objective value. But my feeling is that there is still something important that differentiates "real" currencies (fiat or not) from bitcoin/gold/etc. Namely, there is a government backing the "real" currencies. Dollars are "guaranteed" to have value because they are "legal tender," ie you can pay your taxes and buy things with them. As long as the US government has power…

Have to pick a bone here: dollars do not have value because they are "legal tender" -- see Zimbabwe hyperinflation [0]. Zimbabweans stopped valuing their national currency years before Zimbabwe recognized any other currencies as legal tender. Dollars (and all fiat for that matter) have value because once upon a time paper money was tied to a specific weight of gold / silver stored in a bank vault. Over the past 100-i…

The point that I meant to get across was that dollars have value as long as the government has power. You're right that it doesn't matter what the government says. Rather what matters is whether or not the government can back up what it says.

If you don't pay your taxes, you will be jailed. How do you pay your taxes? Well that's up the government, and they went with dollars.

I don't agree with your explanation of why dollars have value. You seem to have a bone to pick with every fiat currency, which I think is very silly.

Re: Bitcoin's Golden Future

#103

Post by VikingCoder »

granda wrote: post #25
VikingCoder wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Crypto currencies will be useless in this case, losing all of their value." Pedantic nitpick - there are crytpocurrencies which are not distributed proof-of-work blockchains, and would not necessarily lose all of their value.

Can you go into more detail?

Maybe I'm just talking about digital currencies in general, I guess...

Re: Bitcoin's Golden Future

#104

Post by decentralised »

decentralised wrote: post #99
delegate wrote: post #6

Bitcoin and other crypto require a well functioning internet infrastructure, otherwise it's just data on a hard-drive. Disconnect a country from the Internet (or filter the traffic) and you're forking the chain. Spend on both networks by buying other (unfiltered) crypto. There are states (even large ISPs) that can do that. Also, the first thing to go in case of global conflict is the global Internet. Countries will t…

> a well functioning internet infrastructure Not that much. Most refugee camps have cell coverage and people there use btc as it's the only money they have access to.

Apparently it's not a good idea to point out that bitcoin not only survives, but thrives under harsh conditions here on HN.

Re: Bitcoin's Golden Future

#105

Post by ericb »

acdha wrote: post #66
simias wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The difference IMO is that gold has intrinsic value by virtue of being rare and shiny. I guess the idea is that even if civilization collapses and we return to the stone age gold will still be valuable. Since the use of gold as currency can be traced back at least to 600BCE[1] there's a good reason to believe that. Bitcoins however doesn't really have a intrinsic "rest" value. Anybody can (and many do) spawn a new bl…

Similarly, national currencies have a value because governments collect taxes and pay for things using those currencies so there's a considerable inertial force encouraging their usage. That doesn't mean that failure is impossible but it smooths out a lot of minor fluctuations whereas, as you pointed out, if a Bitcoin competitor took off tomorrow there's no pressure not to adopt it instead other than the sunk costs w…

I don't think it is that simple. Bitcoin has 3 main advantages that can't be easily taken away from it that make things harder for competitors:

1 - Distribution (Metcalfe's law):

Metcalfe's law states that the value of a telecommunications network is proportional to the square of the number of connected users of the system (n2).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metcalfe%27s_law

2- Schelling Point

Bitcoin is the natural Schelling point for those drawn to the advantages of cryptographic money.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Focal_point_(game_theory)

3 - Most battle-tested codebase. No cryptocurrency has been successfully operating for as long.

Re: Bitcoin's Golden Future

#106

Post by saalweachter »

Marazan wrote: post #69
imaginenore wrote: post #5

"Digital currencies have no fundamental value" That argument never made any sense to me. What's the fundamental value of $1? People assign value to all things based on how desirable they are (the demand). There are rare exceptions, like when a government ties their national currency to something like the dollar, but that immediately creates a black market, where it trades for its real value, and because of that, the…

The dollar is backed by the full faith and credit of the United States Government. You can settle $1 of government debt with $1.

You can settle $1 of debt with $1, in the United States.

If someone owes you $1, you can offer to take other amounts of other goods or currency, but you are required to take cash dollars.

Re: Bitcoin's Golden Future

#107

Post by sbenitoj »

trgv wrote: post #102
sbenitoj wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have to pick a bone here: dollars do not have value because they are "legal tender" -- see Zimbabwe hyperinflation [0]. Zimbabweans stopped valuing their national currency years before Zimbabwe recognized any other currencies as legal tender. Dollars (and all fiat for that matter) have value because once upon a time paper money was tied to a specific weight of gold / silver stored in a bank vault. Over the past 100-i…

The point that I meant to get across was that dollars have value as long as the government has power. You're right that it doesn't matter what the government says. Rather what matters is whether or not the government can back up what it says. If you don't pay your taxes, you will be jailed. How do you pay your taxes? Well that's up the government, and they went with dollars. I don't agree with your explanation of why…

Not sure why I'm getting downvotes on this, but you're right that I have an issue with every fiat currency, they're antithetical to a free society. No fiat currencies would exist in a world without coercion, people would not voluntarily use a currency which is debased every year by design.

Re: Bitcoin's Golden Future

#108

Post by vasilipupkin »

ktta wrote: post #89
vasilipupkin wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

that's not quite the case. There is such a thing as objective value. Stocks have objective value because they pay dividends. Real estate in warm climates has objective value because it's pleasant to be in a warm place in winter. BMW costs more than a honda civic because it is objectively a better driving experience. Etc. Etc. So, no, it's not true that there is no objective value

Each one of your cases can be debunked. Stocks only have value when SEC deems that it can have value. There are people who would love to live in a cold climate for whom land in a warm climate has no value. BMW costs more than Honda because people are willing to pay that much for it, which is how BMW sets the price. All of your cases are about subjective value. Take out the buyer with personal interests on the other s…

ehhhh, no. Stocks do not only have value when SEC deems that it can have value. That is completely incorrect. SEC simply regulates equity issuance, it doesn't set the price of each stock. BMW costs more than honda because it is objectively a better car. By objectively identifiable metrics. Yes, it's true there are some people who love cold climates. But in the US people are moving from cold climates to warmer climates, on average - so real estate in warmer climates is growing in value faster. So, no, you are completely wrong.

Re: Bitcoin's Golden Future

#109

Post by smokeyj »

Double_a_92 wrote: post #46
smokeyj wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bitcoin is global. If you want to be sure your transaction is on the longest chain you can just wait for more confirmations. You could even receive confirmations over satellite now. > I guess my point is: be careful, this is still very much experimental, don't invest everything you have in them. Also experimental: Central banking and fiat currency. The lifetime of these non-crypto backed coins isn't that great either…

> Also they tend to be devalued in times of war. Yeah, a currency that strongly depends on a stable and free internet is much better in times of war. /s

Diversifying a portion of your mattress money into digital money isn't the worst idea. It's a hedge against hyperinflation that can be transported digitally.

Re: Bitcoin's Golden Future

#110

Post by vasilipupkin »

sbenitoj wrote: post #96
vasilipupkin wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

that's not quite the case. There is such a thing as objective value. Stocks have objective value because they pay dividends. Real estate in warm climates has objective value because it's pleasant to be in a warm place in winter. BMW costs more than a honda civic because it is objectively a better driving experience. Etc. Etc. So, no, it's not true that there is no objective value

Price is what people pay, value is what they get, and it's completely subjective. The only reason people pay more for a BMW than a Honda is because they perceive they're getting more value with a BMW than with a Honda. There is no such thing as an "objectively better driving experience" -- all value is derived from perception, and perception is individual.

eehhhh. No. People prefer faster cars on average over slower cars. that's an objective metric - one car is slower than the other. They don't just perceive it. If they simply perceived it, you could launch an advertising campaign and convince them that they should pay more for the Honda. But they won't.
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