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Bitcoin's Golden Future

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Re: Bitcoin's Golden Future

#61

Post by simias »

sbenitoj wrote: post #44
_xnmw wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Bitcoin is a serious threat to that because unlike gold, it is orders of magnitude more difficult for governments to confiscate and control. Nonsense. Nothing stops China from seizing all of the largest bitcoin mining operations tomorrow, and building some additional miners to conduct a 51% attack. They would then effectively control the network. Bitcoin is actually easier to control than fiat currency or gold becau…

This is a common misconception, the Bitcoin network would not be harmed by governments seizing control of Bitcoin mining operations, there are many options in such of an event. All seizing mining would do is prove how resilient Bitcoin is to government efforts and further decentralize the currency. Also, implicit in your statement is the belief that miners control the network, which is not true. They're an important…

>This is a common misconception, the Bitcoin network would not be harmed by governments seizing control of Bitcoin mining operations, there are many options in such of an event

You'll have to give us some sources for that I'm afraid, it's not at all obvious from my point of view.

Should China merely shutdown the miners the disruption shouldn't be too massive and only temporary while the difficulty adjusts to the new hash rate. But if they actually decide to use the miners "offensively" they could make a 51% attack and double spend bitcoins. Such an attack would greatly reduce confidence in bitcoin and would probably tank its value pretty hard. That sounds pretty harmful to me.

Re: Bitcoin's Golden Future

#62

Post by gruez »

rugffgbv wrote: post #10
thecopy wrote: post #4

Transaction time and energy inefficiency makes Bitcoin's future not so golden, imo.

Not only it's slow, but transaction fees are ridiculously high. $4.3 currently. I go to shop and pay $0.5 for 2kg of potatoes (or a bottle of beer), and pay $4.3 fee, and wait 1 hour for confirmations?

>Not only it's slow, but transaction fees are ridiculously high. $4.3 currently.

Why is this meme constantly getting repeated? As I said yesterday (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15176214), paying 10+ satoshis per kB gets your transaction in the next block most of the time. It's still true as of today https://jochen-hoenicke.de/queue/#8h.

Re: Bitcoin's Golden Future

#63

Post by lightedman »

imaginenore wrote: post #5

"Digital currencies have no fundamental value" That argument never made any sense to me. What's the fundamental value of $1? People assign value to all things based on how desirable they are (the demand). There are rare exceptions, like when a government ties their national currency to something like the dollar, but that immediately creates a black market, where it trades for its real value, and because of that, the…

"What's the fundamental value of $1?"

I can wipe my butt with a dollar bill. I can use that dollar bill to snort a line of cocaine. I can make a paper football out of it. I can use it to help roll a joint. I can fold it into a small coin purse to hold change and keep it from rattling in my pocket.

The dollar bill, being a physical object, has some utility, and thus some value.

Can you do any of those things mentioned above with a Bitcoin?

Re: Bitcoin's Golden Future

#64

Post by elevensies »

delegate wrote: post #6

Bitcoin and other crypto require a well functioning internet infrastructure, otherwise it's just data on a hard-drive. Disconnect a country from the Internet (or filter the traffic) and you're forking the chain. Spend on both networks by buying other (unfiltered) crypto. There are states (even large ISPs) that can do that. Also, the first thing to go in case of global conflict is the global Internet. Countries will t…

This is something I've been wondering about. Maybe someone with more bitcoin expertise could answer.

Is there more mining capacity inside China than outside China?

If so, and the Chinese government used their well-known firewall against Bitcoin for a matter of days to weeks, would Chinese miners have the longer chain? And thus the chain?

I guess what I'm wondering is if the government of China has the ability to DOS Bitcoin as a payment system outside China at will.

Re: Bitcoin's Golden Future

#65

Post by rm_-rf_slash »

imaginenore wrote: post #35
rm_-rf_slash wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The fundamental value of $1 is the full faith and credit of the United States Government and the economy of America. The fundamental value of cryptocurrencies is a shared agreement of value amongst investors. I imagine some snotty 14-year old would argue that there is no fundamental distinction between the two but that's not being economically serious.

I'd argue more, according to your definitions, the "fundamental value" of the dollar (which you conveniently didn't specify) relies on violence (as in, pay up of guys with guns will put you in prison). Whereas the fundamental value of Bitcoin is determined by the free market. It's quite clear to me which one is a more moral system. Again, based on your own definitions.

Using your same argument, taxes are a peaceful price for civilization. I don't need armed tax collectors busting down my door to take my money because we live in civilized society.

The fundamental value of a national currency is not violence. It is civil society.

Re: Bitcoin's Golden Future

#66

Post by acdha »

simias wrote: post #56
gldalmaso wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you have a valid point, but, ultimately aren't all or most trades digital today? Are countries exchanging actual loads of gold and/or cash around? If the answer is no, then isn't it all just data on a hard-drive? In that case damaging internet links will have the same effect all around, though information can probably still go in/out in different ways with some effort. Is there some aspect of crypto currency…

The difference IMO is that gold has intrinsic value by virtue of being rare and shiny. I guess the idea is that even if civilization collapses and we return to the stone age gold will still be valuable. Since the use of gold as currency can be traced back at least to 600BCE[1] there's a good reason to believe that. Bitcoins however doesn't really have a intrinsic "rest" value. Anybody can (and many do) spawn a new bl…

Similarly, national currencies have a value because governments collect taxes and pay for things using those currencies so there's a considerable inertial force encouraging their usage.

That doesn't mean that failure is impossible but it smooths out a lot of minor fluctuations whereas, as you pointed out, if a Bitcoin competitor took off tomorrow there's no pressure not to adopt it instead other than the sunk costs which a small percentage of the general population has.

Re: Bitcoin's Golden Future

#67

Post by seppin »

_lbaq wrote: post #3
vocatus_gate wrote: post #2

The big mystery to me is whether Bitcoin is the Myspace or Facebook of digital currency. Only time will tell.

Just like Facebook, the usurper have to do something allot better to drag people away.

exclusivity. it'll be a coin launched only on Harvard at first

Re: Bitcoin's Golden Future

#68

Post by ballenf »

chinathrow wrote: post #54
ballenf wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The fork concern is real, but the double-spend on both forks is less so. It would require the double-spender to have access to both networks. Which isn't that hard to see. But, it wouldn't take too many parties having access to both networks to prevent the fork in the first place. The miners who control such things are very highly incentivized to keep their operation on the main or largest fork. The alternative for t…

> The fork concern is real, but the double-spend on both forks is less so. It would require the double-spender to have access to both networks. Which isn't that hard to see. Not hard at all. Have a second uplink to the world wide net, e.g. via sat.

Which is my point: if an interconnect is possible, miners are going to have a very high incentive to use it as well. Not just double-spenders. And it wouldn't take many miners doing it to prevent the fork in the first place.

Re: Bitcoin's Golden Future

#69

Post by Marazan »

imaginenore wrote: post #5

"Digital currencies have no fundamental value" That argument never made any sense to me. What's the fundamental value of $1? People assign value to all things based on how desirable they are (the demand). There are rare exceptions, like when a government ties their national currency to something like the dollar, but that immediately creates a black market, where it trades for its real value, and because of that, the…

The dollar is backed by the full faith and credit of the United States Government.

You can settle $1 of government debt with $1.

Re: Bitcoin's Golden Future

#70

Post by seppin »

imaginenore wrote: post #32
kpommerenke wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The fundamental value of $1 is $1, since it allows you to pay off $1 of your tax liability to the U.S. government.

Ok, then the fundamental value of 1BTC is 1BTC, since it allows you to pay of 1BTC of any liability to whoever accepts Bitcoin.

> allows you to pay of 1BTC of any liability to whoever accepts Bitcoin

exactly.

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