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Leaked document: EU Presidency calls for massive internet filtering

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Re: Leaked document: EU Presidency calls for massive internet filtering

#81

China’s example is massive. China’s success has proven that countries can succeed without adopting western liberal freedoms. In fact, success adopting only a small subset of economic and personal freedoms, and none of the political freedoms. The economy is good, the state is stable.. Proof of concept for non-liberal systems. This means freedoms need to be argued for on their own merits. Free speech for its own sake.…

> China’s success has proven that countries can succeed without adopting western liberal freedoms.

I agree that it's perceived that way by many, and perception is reality to a great extent.

However, the jury is still out. Many countries have advanced to China's level of development while remaining authoritarian. S. Korea and Taiwan did it from roughly the 1950s to the 1980s. But it's hard to name one that advanced beyond that without adopting democracy.

It's also interesting to look at in historical context (all of the following is based on memory from reading Chinese history; probably a few details are off): Before the Opium Wars in the mid-19th century, China saw itself as the center of the world, far superior to all other nations, and had been using the same political system, under a variety of rulers, since roughly 250 BC (with many long interruptions).

The economic and military superiority of the Western powers was a shock, and China tried to adjust by changing as little as possible in order to maintain the culture and political system (and political power of the elite, of course). The steps they took were something like the following: First they tried to just buy the weapons, but that didn't work - you need skilled people to maintain them, supplies, etc.; you need skilled commanders and training; and you need to build them yourself or be dependent on foreign powers. Then they tried just hiring, then training a few people. Then realizing they needed the foundation of Western intellectual resources (science, open inquiry, etc.) to use Western tech effectively and to compete, IIRC they tried to open Western education to just a few. ... None of the half-measures were nearly effective enough, and in 1911 the Qing dynasty collapsed and a period of civil war began which ended in 1949 when the Communists conquered the country. Due in part to the horrible behavior of the Western powers and of others such as Japan, who all took advantage of China's weakness (remember that the UK actually controlled a major Chinese city until 1997), the period from the Opium Wars to 1949 is called the Century of Humiliation by some.

The recent attempt to adopt a Western economy without a Western political system seems, in a way, to be a continuation of the 19th century policies; I'm not sure it will be successful. The Communists are like the Confucian dynasties in other ways too. For example, the focus on corruption fits perfectly; a well-known theory of the cycle of the dynasties includes them collapsing under corruption. The Communists are fighting hard not to have history repeat itself, but IMVHO, it's no coincidence: A great advantage of democracy is the great reduction of corruption (though there still is too much); the free press reveals it, opposing parties harp on it, and the corrupt get voted out of office. Imagine the corruption of a U.S. political party that had been in office since 1949, couldn't get voted out of office, had no opposition, and controlled the press.

Re: Leaked document: EU Presidency calls for massive internet filtering

#82

China’s example is massive. China’s success has proven that countries can succeed without adopting western liberal freedoms. In fact, success adopting only a small subset of economic and personal freedoms, and none of the political freedoms. The economy is good, the state is stable.. Proof of concept for non-liberal systems. This means freedoms need to be argued for on their own merits. Free speech for its own sake.…

> China’s success has proven that countries can succeed without adopting western liberal freedoms.

The west is an example of a region that can succeed without "western" liberal freedoms. "Western" liberal freedoms in the west were things attained after becoming wealthy and stable.

Re: Leaked document: EU Presidency calls for massive internet filtering

#83

China’s example is massive. China’s success has proven that countries can succeed without adopting western liberal freedoms. In fact, success adopting only a small subset of economic and personal freedoms, and none of the political freedoms. The economy is good, the state is stable.. Proof of concept for non-liberal systems. This means freedoms need to be argued for on their own merits. Free speech for its own sake.…

A huge chunk of millennials are non longer believe in free speech [0], and everyone seems to agree that Facebook et. al's censorship of objectionable content is great. Between the insanity of the current government/far right, and the rise of the far/tankie left, I'm not sure that liberalism is long for this world, even in the West. [0] http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2015/11/20/40-of-millen...

So-called tankies are pretty much irrelevant though.

Re: Leaked document: EU Presidency calls for massive internet filtering

#84

China’s example is massive. China’s success has proven that countries can succeed without adopting western liberal freedoms. In fact, success adopting only a small subset of economic and personal freedoms, and none of the political freedoms. The economy is good, the state is stable.. Proof of concept for non-liberal systems. This means freedoms need to be argued for on their own merits. Free speech for its own sake.…

A country with no systematic process for power transition that has survived all of 68 years? There are plenty of people older than the PRC. Wake me up in another century.

Re: Leaked document: EU Presidency calls for massive internet filtering

#85
post #71

China’s example is massive. China’s success has proven that countries can succeed without adopting western liberal freedoms. In fact, success adopting only a small subset of economic and personal freedoms, and none of the political freedoms. The economy is good, the state is stable.. Proof of concept for non-liberal systems. This means freedoms need to be argued for on their own merits. Free speech for its own sake.…

Even the "liberal" states have never had unlimited freedom of speech and broadcast to the same extent as internet libertarians would imagine. The ECHR Article 10 recognises this: "1. Everyone has the right to freedom of expression. This right shall include freedom to hold opinions and to receive and impart information and ideas without interference by public authority and regardless of frontiers. This article shall n…

Sheesh! the ECHR's phrasing is awful. ..The protection of morals?

I agree though. They haven't. Even in countries with a high regard for free speech, there are exceptions. Nor is internet censorship the end of democracy.

But, directionality is important in politics. China provides an alternative example, that breaks many of the "rules" entirely. You can have a great firewall. China does. It's doing OK. Why can't Turkey? Why can't India? Why can't the EU?

^thanks for posting, btw. I've never read it, and I'm a citizen.

^^Ok… that caveat appears 5 times, allowing the limiting of 5 different rights for almost any reason any member state decides.

This really bothers me. I wish they had left these rights out, and only included rights that they can actually agree on.

Re: Leaked document: EU Presidency calls for massive internet filtering

#86

China’s example is massive. China’s success has proven that countries can succeed without adopting western liberal freedoms. In fact, success adopting only a small subset of economic and personal freedoms, and none of the political freedoms. The economy is good, the state is stable.. Proof of concept for non-liberal systems. This means freedoms need to be argued for on their own merits. Free speech for its own sake.…

A huge chunk of millennials are non longer believe in free speech [0], and everyone seems to agree that Facebook et. al's censorship of objectionable content is great. Between the insanity of the current government/far right, and the rise of the far/tankie left, I'm not sure that liberalism is long for this world, even in the West. [0] http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2015/11/20/40-of-millen...

> tankie

Tankies? I think of that as the Communists who supported Stalin's invasion of Hungary in the 1950s. What does that mean here?

Re: Leaked document: EU Presidency calls for massive internet filtering

#87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Erdogan and the whole European east (Greece, Bulgaria, Ukraine) expansion was always just a big part of the anti-European strategy to binge grow this polit-amobea to death. And it has worked, in so far that it has accelerated the probable demise forward by at least twenty years. Europe was always just a half hearted dream by its elites, who where not even enough into this vision, to share their power with the institu…

Literally nothing you're saying makes any sense on any level. This looks more like markov-chain generated text.

There is some truth in the idea that the growth of the EU was intended to slow down the process of federalization. The UK pushed hard for the growth in the 2000's and was also a proponent of Turkey joining for these reasons.

Re: Leaked document: EU Presidency calls for massive internet filtering

#88
post #23
post #12

Non-EU readers should bear in mind that the presidency of the EU is much much weaker than that of, say, the US. It's rotated around the countries on a schedule, and has mainly agenda-setting authority. That is, countries who hold the presidency will use it to try to get movement on some issues that they care about, but it doesn't have anywhere close to enough power to get something passed which the other member state…

For this reason the article seems at least a little alarmist. It wouldn't be news that Estonian politics is delving into censorship/surveillance; tacking on "EU Presidency" just ads faux-gravitas.

It's not the least alarmist. The EU Presidency is an real office that has a real function, and the leaked document literally says in the first line "From: Presidency".

Re: Leaked document: EU Presidency calls for massive internet filtering

#89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a proposal to be implemented EU-wide, not just in Estonia, so the presidency seems relevant.

But the presidency has no actual power to get it passed.

No, they have the power to "call for" it, which is what they have done (and the article says they've done).

Re: Leaked document: EU Presidency calls for massive internet filtering

#90

China’s example is massive. China’s success has proven that countries can succeed without adopting western liberal freedoms. In fact, success adopting only a small subset of economic and personal freedoms, and none of the political freedoms. The economy is good, the state is stable.. Proof of concept for non-liberal systems. This means freedoms need to be argued for on their own merits. Free speech for its own sake.…

A huge chunk of millennials are non longer believe in free speech [0], and everyone seems to agree that Facebook et. al's censorship of objectionable content is great. Between the insanity of the current government/far right, and the rise of the far/tankie left, I'm not sure that liberalism is long for this world, even in the West. [0] http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2015/11/20/40-of-millen...

While I agree that it's stunning and alarming if true that 40% of millennials think the gov't should be allowed to arrest people for making racist statements, I don't see where Facebook fits into this situation. They are a private organization and should be allowed to do whatever they feel is necessary to protect their business interests (within legal limits). Personally I don't really use Facebook anymore for a host of reasons. If they want to start filtering all kinds of speech they disagree with, they can go ahead at the risk of losing members. But I don't have a problem with it. Every organization has its skew whether you see it or not.
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