Lost Languages Discovered in One of the Oldest Continuously Run Libraries • Hacker News Board

Re: Lost Languages Discovered in One of the Oldest Continuously Run Libraries

#41

Post by fipar » Wed, Sep 06, 2017, 12:59 PM UTC

FroshKiller wrote: post #31

damnfine wrote: post #2

Can we crowdfund a militia to protect and secure archives for digitizing in conflict zones? We are losing too much priceless history to fools over ego.

This comment is a gem of colonialist thought. Those "conflict zones" are also generally the sovereign territory of the people who live there, who are generally one half of the "fools" you mentioned (their neighbors being generally the other half). The "ego" they have is generally a desire to keep their sovereign territory--their homelands, which are frequently the same places in which their ancestors produced the "ar…

As someone from a country who has been a colony of a handful of other countries during its history, I understand and can relate to your argument.

Also, as someone from a continent that still has millitias funded by other countries, I find the idea of funding a militia appalling, specially if the purpose is not to at least try and save people, but to save cultural artifacts ...

That said, I think you are oversimplifying things a bit in your comment.

This part:

>Those people have a right to decide what to do about the destruction of their cultural artifacts, because they are people and have agency.

Think of how even in geographically small countries, there is often cultural heterogeneity, and you can see that it's not easy to say if those deciding to destruct some cultural artifact actually "own" it. I think this is specially important since cultural artifacts tell a culture's history (books are the most obvious example, but we are able to learn basic things about pre-historic cultures by looking at their non textual artifacts), and the aftermath of a war typically includes the winner rewriting history, which is something that destroying the loser's artifacts makes easier.

Let me finish with a quote I identify a lot with, from Lukas Ligeti[1]: "It makes no sense to group people together according to superficial characteristics. There are no majorities in the world: we are, each and every one of us, a minority of one"

[1] "Secret Instruments, Secret Destinations", from ARCANA II

Re: Lost Languages Discovered in One of the Oldest Continuously Run Libraries

#42

Post by [deleted] » Wed, Sep 06, 2017, 1:20 PM UTC

FroshKiller wrote: post #40

Majestic121 wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I understand your point about invasion and imperialism, but I strongly disagree with your opinion that people from a country "own" the culture of this country. National cultures and cultural artifacts are part of the human culture as a whole, and as such they belong to mankind. There's hardly any good justification to destroy pieces of human culture, and misplaced nationalism definitely is not of them.

The idea that all cultures belong to "mankind" is grease for the wheels of appropriation. People have a right to choose what they share with others. There's a certain phrase that people from my county use to express surprise and approval. It isn't widely known. When I use it around neighbors, they know what I'm conveying, and it identifies us as kindred. I could tell you what it is, and you might like it. You might e…

[deleted]

Re: Lost Languages Discovered in One of the Oldest Continuously Run Libraries

#43

Post by mbroncano » Wed, Sep 06, 2017, 1:32 PM UTC

CalRobert wrote: post #27

HillaryBriss wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

in the first Gulf War, the UN Coalition forces (mostly the US) carpet bombed parts of Iraq that contained a lot of yet-to-be-excavated ancient villages (they looked like mounds in the sand by the 1990s). we lost of a bunch of priceless history then, too. i'm not trying to make statements about the equivalences or non-equivalences of various war participants over there, but, there's so much ancient history being destr…

If you find this kind of thing interesting, you might want to check out https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maya_codices It's profoundly depressing to consider what was lost, though.

Yes, you could say we'd learn something is the last 500 years.

Mildly related, in the same times, a minority protection office was established and funded to some extent [1] which also incurred in some well known political upheaval.

There's nothing new under the sun.

[1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protector_of_the_Indians

Re: Lost Languages Discovered in One of the Oldest Continuously Run Libraries

#44

Post by pbhjpbhj » Wed, Sep 06, 2017, 1:43 PM UTC

FroshKiller wrote: post #40

Majestic121 wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I understand your point about invasion and imperialism, but I strongly disagree with your opinion that people from a country "own" the culture of this country. National cultures and cultural artifacts are part of the human culture as a whole, and as such they belong to mankind. There's hardly any good justification to destroy pieces of human culture, and misplaced nationalism definitely is not of them.

The idea that all cultures belong to "mankind" is grease for the wheels of appropriation. People have a right to choose what they share with others. There's a certain phrase that people from my county use to express surprise and approval. It isn't widely known. When I use it around neighbors, they know what I'm conveying, and it identifies us as kindred. I could tell you what it is, and you might like it. You might e…

I couldn't disagree more. You lose nothing if I too wear a tartan pattern, say. You're just being mean. FWIW it's a stage toddlers go through, not wanting other's to use what they use or do what they do.

Assuming you're USAmerican, USA has "appropriated" the scientific culture of Russia by also going to space; appropriated the beer making culture of Europe; appropriated the Television/Computer culture of Britain; the number system born from Indian/Persian culture; appropriated the high-fashion culture of Paris/Milan/etc. in some of it's cities; appropriated the food culture of Mexico/Germany/Italy/wherever; appropriated the traditional medicines that gave rise to drugs like aspirin; et cetera.

Why do you want to stop positive advancements from being adopted by everyone, is it just greed? Why do you care what culture the music someone else listens to was born from.

Of course you should be allowed to not adopt other's culture if that's your choice, only use anything you've created from scratch yourself (tool use I think arose out of E. African culture, better avoid that) - otherwise you're appropriating somebody's culture in some way.

Re: Lost Languages Discovered in One of the Oldest Continuously Run Libraries

#45

Post by d0lph » Wed, Sep 06, 2017, 1:50 PM UTC

FroshKiller wrote: post #40

Majestic121 wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I understand your point about invasion and imperialism, but I strongly disagree with your opinion that people from a country "own" the culture of this country. National cultures and cultural artifacts are part of the human culture as a whole, and as such they belong to mankind. There's hardly any good justification to destroy pieces of human culture, and misplaced nationalism definitely is not of them.

The idea that all cultures belong to "mankind" is grease for the wheels of appropriation. People have a right to choose what they share with others. There's a certain phrase that people from my county use to express surprise and approval. It isn't widely known. When I use it around neighbors, they know what I'm conveying, and it identifies us as kindred. I could tell you what it is, and you might like it. You might e…

So you're saying that since your culture does not belong to mankind, that it belongs to you and your neighbors?Certainly you can't be forced to teach others this phrase, but neither can you stop someone else from using it. Other countries often appropriate English words and phrases, and yet it's not considered offensive.

Re: Lost Languages Discovered in One of the Oldest Continuously Run Libraries

#46

Post by FroshKiller » Wed, Sep 06, 2017, 1:51 PM UTC

pbhjpbhj wrote: post #44

FroshKiller wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The idea that all cultures belong to "mankind" is grease for the wheels of appropriation. People have a right to choose what they share with others. There's a certain phrase that people from my county use to express surprise and approval. It isn't widely known. When I use it around neighbors, they know what I'm conveying, and it identifies us as kindred. I could tell you what it is, and you might like it. You might e…

I couldn't disagree more. You lose nothing if I too wear a tartan pattern, say. You're just being mean. FWIW it's a stage toddlers go through, not wanting other's to use what they use or do what they do. Assuming you're USAmerican, USA has "appropriated" the scientific culture of Russia by also going to space; appropriated the beer making culture of Europe; appropriated the Television/Computer culture of Britain; the…

Did you miss this bit?

"The transmission of culture between peoples should be based on a mutual interest in sharing and learning, not some sense of global entitlement."

Re: Lost Languages Discovered in One of the Oldest Continuously Run Libraries

#47

Post by FroshKiller » Wed, Sep 06, 2017, 1:56 PM UTC

fipar wrote: post #41

FroshKiller wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This comment is a gem of colonialist thought. Those "conflict zones" are also generally the sovereign territory of the people who live there, who are generally one half of the "fools" you mentioned (their neighbors being generally the other half). The "ego" they have is generally a desire to keep their sovereign territory--their homelands, which are frequently the same places in which their ancestors produced the "ar…

As someone from a country who has been a colony of a handful of other countries during its history, I understand and can relate to your argument. Also, as someone from a continent that still has millitias funded by other countries, I find the idea of funding a militia appalling, specially if the purpose is not to at least try and save people, but to save cultural artifacts ... That said, I think you are oversimplifyi…

You're right that I simplified heterogeneity, but my point wasn't so much that the preservation or destruction of culture should be left to a population of certain ownership--it's that these things should not be left to mercenaries hired by outsiders with a sense of global "human" entitlement.

Ownership and responsibility are really complex topics. The notion that you shouldn't rent a bunch of goons to steal books from your co-worker's house just because you think he's not taking care of them properly is not complex.

Re: Lost Languages Discovered in One of the Oldest Continuously Run Libraries

#48

Post by [deleted] » Wed, Sep 06, 2017, 1:57 PM UTC

FroshKiller wrote: post #38

lucozade wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This comment is a gem of nationalist thought. When the Bamiyan buddhas were dynamited, exactly whose culture were the Taliban "preserving"? It is entirely reasonable to believe that culture and history have an importance independent of petty, local squabbles. Crowd funding militia may well be questionable but to demean the sentiment as colonialist is pointlessly insulting.

I don't think you understand what nationalism is. I admit that my reply could be read as a tacit endorsement of tribalism, but there's nothing nationalist about it. You should not presuppose that conflicts are "petty, local squabbles." Minimizing language like that reinforces the mindset that the mighty are justified in interfering in the sovereign destiny of a people. Anyway, my reply was thoughtful, not pointlessly…

[deleted]

Re: Lost Languages Discovered in One of the Oldest Continuously Run Libraries

#49

Post by pbhjpbhj » Wed, Sep 06, 2017, 2:03 PM UTC

FroshKiller wrote: post #38

lucozade wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This comment is a gem of nationalist thought. When the Bamiyan buddhas were dynamited, exactly whose culture were the Taliban "preserving"? It is entirely reasonable to believe that culture and history have an importance independent of petty, local squabbles. Crowd funding militia may well be questionable but to demean the sentiment as colonialist is pointlessly insulting.

I don't think you understand what nationalism is. I admit that my reply could be read as a tacit endorsement of tribalism, but there's nothing nationalist about it. You should not presuppose that conflicts are "petty, local squabbles." Minimizing language like that reinforces the mindset that the mighty are justified in interfering in the sovereign destiny of a people. Anyway, my reply was thoughtful, not pointlessly…

Whose conception of sovereign rights.

Sovereignty is the historic acquisition of power through violence in all cases that spring to mind (W. European bias).

How far back do you go. Does Russia now have sovereignty over Crimean history?

Re: Lost Languages Discovered in One of the Oldest Continuously Run Libraries

#50

Post by FroshKiller » Wed, Sep 06, 2017, 2:05 PM UTC

d0lph wrote: post #45

FroshKiller wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The idea that all cultures belong to "mankind" is grease for the wheels of appropriation. People have a right to choose what they share with others. There's a certain phrase that people from my county use to express surprise and approval. It isn't widely known. When I use it around neighbors, they know what I'm conveying, and it identifies us as kindred. I could tell you what it is, and you might like it. You might e…

So you're saying that since your culture does not belong to mankind, that it belongs to you and your neighbors?Certainly you can't be forced to teach others this phrase, but neither can you stop someone else from using it. Other countries often appropriate English words and phrases, and yet it's not considered offensive.

Well, being a member of mankind, my culture does at some point stop being "my" culture alone. If my neighbors and I were to perish, I couldn't stop cultural anthropologists from trying to piece together our ways to better understand us. And I really wouldn't want to, honestly.

But I certainly don't want a bunch of carpetbaggers helping themselves to my culture in a way that would erode its meaning. So as a living member of the culture, I choose to share or not share based on what I value, why I value it, and how best I judge to nurture it. Would it be better for me, my people, and humanity if I shared this? Do I judge there is more value in not sharing while we are alive? Do I have a responsibility to preserve and transmit my culture--at least among my people?

Simple language is an example that breaks down fast, because I don't really lose anything by teaching you a phrase and its meaning. If my words live in one more mouth, there aren't fewer words for me to say. But even the meaning of words can change based on who uses them and how.

A better example might be a sacred text. I may have a "family Bible" handed down through centuries. The book itself might be a valuable cultural artifact, and the individual contributions by my ancestors might constitute a body of knowledge of interest to others. But it isn't anyone else's right to demand access to my "family Bible." There is no onus on my family to produce a digital copy, no moral obligation to permit visitors to leaf through its pages.

And you certainly may not hire men with guns to come into my home and take it just because I leave it on the coffee table instead of a safe. You may not kick in my door to preserve it just because the cat sleeps on it. But when I am dead and no kin remain to claim it? Take it, study it, put it in a museum.