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The Windows Shutdown crapfest (2006)

moishelettvin.blogspot.com

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Re: The Windows Shutdown crapfest (2006)

#111

Post by Const-me »

codedokode wrote: post #82
chipperyman573 wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is that Web exists in a sandbox. They can collect data about my usage of their website, full stop (large sites like Facebook and Google get around this, but that's not really telemetry). With desktop there's no way of knowing what's collected with "telemetry"

And that is the problem of using OSes with outdated security model from mainframe era.

We have a couple of very popular OSes with security models resembling a web browser: iOS, and Android.

You have no idea how much data is collected by an average application on these platforms.

They don’t call it telemetry, they call it “analytics”, but it’s pretty much the same thing: https://www.quora.com/What-is-the-best-platform-for-mobile-a... https://www.templatemonster.com/blog/best-mobile-app-analyti...

Unlike Windows, a lot of parties have access to the collected data: application developers, and also these platforms like localytics/upsight/google/etc.

Re: The Windows Shutdown crapfest (2006)

#112

Post by wrs »

taneq wrote: post #95
wrs wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Putting on my asbestos suit... I started the telemetry project (aka SQM or CEIP) at Microsoft when I was on the MSN Explorer team. (Then Office got excited about it, then SQL Server and Windows and nearly everyone else.) The original inspiration was being in a meeting much like the one described, where people were arguing about whether we should optimize the UI for 640x480, 800x600, or 1024x768 screens. The "argument…

There's a right way and a wrong way to do telemetry. The right way: When the Windows 7 RC was released, you guys made it available for free, with telemetry, as the final stage of real-world testing. It was up-front, it was open, it was optional. I was happy to join in, and bought Windows 7 when it came out, and it good. The wrong way: When Windows 10 was released, a whole lot of nebulously defined, mandatory telemetr…

Win 10 is way after my time. When I was the SQM architect we were very strict about not collecting any identifying information, the collection was always opt-in, and the intention was to publish a KB article with a list of the data points we collected (not sure if that happened).

I don't know what the internal MSFT rules are now, but the conservative position I took back then does seem rather quaint given what happens on mobile platforms nowadays...

Re: The Windows Shutdown crapfest (2006)

#113

Post by ManlyBread »

spookthesunset wrote: post #107
taneq wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a right way and a wrong way to do telemetry. The right way: When the Windows 7 RC was released, you guys made it available for free, with telemetry, as the final stage of real-world testing. It was up-front, it was open, it was optional. I was happy to join in, and bought Windows 7 when it came out, and it good. The wrong way: When Windows 10 was released, a whole lot of nebulously defined, mandatory telemetr…

Every website you and everybody know you visits is full of telemetry used to improve the website. Why should "real" desktop software be any different?

Because the desktop software is executed on my desktop - and since I'm the owner I'd like to have full control over what is happening on it instead of giving up that power for the benefit of a faceless entity and a foggy promise of "better user experience".

Re: The Windows Shutdown crapfest (2006)

#114

Post by Lorkki »

sven44 wrote: post #15
bradford wrote: post #10

I started at MS during Vista and I've been involved (sometimes tangentially) with Windows ever since. This is all my opinion, but It's been very interesting seeing the decision making process change over time. If I had to summarize the change, I'd say that it's evolved from an expertise-based system to a data based system. The reason why eight people were present at every planning meeting is because their expert opin…

Telemetry isn't magic. It might take a few contentious issues off the table but for the ambiguous long term stuff, it still boils down to someone showing some balls and putting their neck on the line. Lumia is a good example where the numbers overruled basic self confidence.

Can you elaborate? I remember hearing mainly good things about the Lumia UI. The problem was that it appeared in the middle of an already heated competition between iOS and Android and didn't put much else on the table.

Re: The Windows Shutdown crapfest (2006)

#115

Post by sevensor »

pritambaral wrote: post #44
sevensor wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That works sometimes, and when it works I can usually get X unstuck without a reboot. But sometimes X gets stuck in a way that makes me unable to switch to another virtual console. Then ssh becomes my only recourse, and the only way to kill X is to reboot. This has only happened to me on systems with nvidia graphics, although it doesn't seem to matter whether I'm using nouveau or proprietary drivers.

> But sometimes X gets stuck in a way that makes me unable to switch to another virtual console This is the situation where I recommend the Magic-SysRq[0] keys. Alt+SysRq+r (on a system where /proc/sys/kernel/sysrq is configured) transfers keyboard control back to the kernel. There are other Magic-SysRq keys. My personal favourite is the one that invokes the OOMKiller; and there's one for remounting all filesystems r…

How have I been using Linux all these years without knowing this? Thank you!

Re: The Windows Shutdown crapfest (2006)

#116

Post by jmkni »

sz4kerto wrote: post #63
cm2187 wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Microsoft introduced a high level of non-opt-out telemetry. That's what is controversial more than the telemetry itself.

On desktops, yes. Other companies have been moving everything to the web, where telemetry is easier and more thorough.

It's also easier to block if you want to (on the web).

Not so easy when it's baked into the OS and software you use.

Re: The Windows Shutdown crapfest (2006)

#117

Post by pixl97 »

lathiat wrote: post #104
glangdale wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There was a nice paper a while back on the topic of 'crash-only systems'. That is, the idea would be that no software system was permitted to have a dignified shutdown path at all. Every system would be turned off with the equivalent of the power switch or "kill -9". https://www.usenix.org/legacy/events/hotos03/tech/full_paper... The point that was made was that frequently the recovery paths were on net faster (for a…

There's a storage vendor (hilariously for thread context) that took this to heart. They don't have a power button, just a switch. You turn it off. I think it was Tintri?

I'm pretty sure Dell MD3200's are like that.

Re: The Windows Shutdown crapfest (2006)

#118

Post by adwilson »

andrewf wrote: post #53
bradford wrote: post #10

I started at MS during Vista and I've been involved (sometimes tangentially) with Windows ever since. This is all my opinion, but It's been very interesting seeing the decision making process change over time. If I had to summarize the change, I'd say that it's evolved from an expertise-based system to a data based system. The reason why eight people were present at every planning meeting is because their expert opin…

What is the telemetry optimizing? In the web world, most A/B testing is focused on increasing engagement . Half of the time people are trying to build a better Skinner box. Is this software actually better for users? I would be encouraged if MS was, for instance, optimizing for a user being able to complete the same tasks in less time.

Cannot speak for all the teams in Windows, but my team has used it successfully to improve the battery life of machines through A/B tests.

We're able to (on insiders builds) try out postponing various operations until the machine is plugged in to see how it effects the user experience and power draw. It helped us tune a few operations in ways I wouldn't have anticipated to improve battery life without degrading the experience

One of the other comments mentioned this but the blog will also highlight some of the more user visible tests that are run. Generally around optimizing UI flows for usability

Re: The Windows Shutdown crapfest (2006)

#119

Post by beagle3 »

spookthesunset wrote: post #107
taneq wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a right way and a wrong way to do telemetry. The right way: When the Windows 7 RC was released, you guys made it available for free, with telemetry, as the final stage of real-world testing. It was up-front, it was open, it was optional. I was happy to join in, and bought Windows 7 when it came out, and it good. The wrong way: When Windows 10 was released, a whole lot of nebulously defined, mandatory telemetr…

Every website you and everybody know you visits is full of telemetry used to improve the website. Why should "real" desktop software be any different?

That's also bad, but at least it is reasonably well documented, and there are a variety of tools (Ghostery, uBlock Origin, uMatrix, Disconnect, Privacy Badger, AdBlockPlus, ....) that can all help you with controlling it.

Unlike files, your OS has access to every file, every key press, etc; some of these get sent in the telemetry. Also, Win10 is mostly a black box in these respects, you don't know what gets sent and there is hardly any documentation either.

Re: The Windows Shutdown crapfest (2006)

#120

Post by svick »

ManlyBread wrote: post #113
spookthesunset wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Every website you and everybody know you visits is full of telemetry used to improve the website. Why should "real" desktop software be any different?

Because the desktop software is executed on my desktop - and since I'm the owner I'd like to have full control over what is happening on it instead of giving up that power for the benefit of a faceless entity and a foggy promise of "better user experience".

A lot of telemetry gathering done by websites is also executed on your desktop. I don't think it makes a different that it's written in JavaScript and not C++.
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