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The Windows Shutdown crapfest (2006)

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Re: The Windows Shutdown crapfest (2006)

#91

Post by Clubber »

0xbear wrote: post #73
Clubber wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, that's not anywhere close to true. It might be in SV, but most businesses just care about how well you solve problems.

Says someone who's not 40 yet. Tech is notoriously ageist.

I've heard the rumors, but I haven't had a problem with it yet. I've been building systems with, not bleeding edge, but relevant technology for 20 years. By building systems, I mean I either do it solo or lead the team with the design. I specialize in back-end automation engines, but can do a good front end as well. I usually don't adopt a technology until it's obvious it's stuck. I primarily do Microsoft stacks. I talk well on my feet, am good talking with clients, and understand the needs of business. I haven't had to use a recruiter in 16 years.

I hope it never happens, but I haven't seen any evidence of it. I'm also never the oldest person in the group. I hope this helps.

Good luck.

Re: The Windows Shutdown crapfest (2006)

#93

Post by wrs »

bradford wrote: post #10

I started at MS during Vista and I've been involved (sometimes tangentially) with Windows ever since. This is all my opinion, but It's been very interesting seeing the decision making process change over time. If I had to summarize the change, I'd say that it's evolved from an expertise-based system to a data based system. The reason why eight people were present at every planning meeting is because their expert opin…

Putting on my asbestos suit... I started the telemetry project (aka SQM or CEIP) at Microsoft when I was on the MSN Explorer team. (Then Office got excited about it, then SQL Server and Windows and nearly everyone else.)

The original inspiration was being in a meeting much like the one described, where people were arguing about whether we should optimize the UI for 640x480, 800x600, or 1024x768 screens. The "argument" consisted almost entirely of anecdotes. I thought "Why don't we just measure how big the screens actually are, and then I won't have to attend any more meetings like this?" It turned out a lot of other people felt that way.

Re: The Windows Shutdown crapfest (2006)

#94

Post by michaelmrose »

codedokode wrote: post #82
chipperyman573 wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is that Web exists in a sandbox. They can collect data about my usage of their website, full stop (large sites like Facebook and Google get around this, but that's not really telemetry). With desktop there's no way of knowing what's collected with "telemetry"

And that is the problem of using OSes with outdated security model from mainframe era.

To some large degree you need to be able to trust the people that provide software to you or you can't function.

Re: The Windows Shutdown crapfest (2006)

#95

Post by taneq »

wrs wrote: post #93
bradford wrote: post #10

I started at MS during Vista and I've been involved (sometimes tangentially) with Windows ever since. This is all my opinion, but It's been very interesting seeing the decision making process change over time. If I had to summarize the change, I'd say that it's evolved from an expertise-based system to a data based system. The reason why eight people were present at every planning meeting is because their expert opin…

Putting on my asbestos suit... I started the telemetry project (aka SQM or CEIP) at Microsoft when I was on the MSN Explorer team. (Then Office got excited about it, then SQL Server and Windows and nearly everyone else.) The original inspiration was being in a meeting much like the one described, where people were arguing about whether we should optimize the UI for 640x480, 800x600, or 1024x768 screens. The "argument…

There's a right way and a wrong way to do telemetry.

The right way: When the Windows 7 RC was released, you guys made it available for free, with telemetry, as the final stage of real-world testing. It was up-front, it was open, it was optional. I was happy to join in, and bought Windows 7 when it came out, and it good.

The wrong way: When Windows 10 was released, a whole lot of nebulously defined, mandatory telemetry was baked into the commercial release. The fact that it was "free" is irrelevant - this was a clear transition from "you own the software" to "MS, via the software, owns and monetizes you." Then the "Get Windows 10" push started and for over a year we had a pitched battle between MS trying to force users to upgrade, and users who didn't want Windows 10 with all its invasive marketing, telemetry (weird how that slider keeps changing itself back from "minimal" to "full", huh?), and loss of control of their systems. I've disagreed with MS's customer relations in the past but never before have I felt that they were actively hostile. I will never use Windows 10.

Re: The Windows Shutdown crapfest (2006)

#96

Post by rapind »

michaelmrose wrote: post #94
codedokode wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And that is the problem of using OSes with outdated security model from mainframe era.

To some large degree you need to be able to trust the people that provide software to you or you can't function.

If it's open source you don't have to trust them as much.

I function just fine with a mostly open stack.

Re: The Windows Shutdown crapfest (2006)

#97

Post by [deleted] »

codedokode wrote: post #81
bradford wrote: post #10

I started at MS during Vista and I've been involved (sometimes tangentially) with Windows ever since. This is all my opinion, but It's been very interesting seeing the decision making process change over time. If I had to summarize the change, I'd say that it's evolved from an expertise-based system to a data based system. The reason why eight people were present at every planning meeting is because their expert opin…

> Telemetry is, by now, a fundamental part of the engineering process. Products that don't incorporate it are going to be clobbered by products that do. I am not sure this is correct. Telemetry can show what users do but it won't show why they do it. Users don't click the button: maybe they don't need it but maybe they don't understand what it does. Or maybe there are too many buttons and users get lost. Also making…

[deleted]

Re: The Windows Shutdown crapfest (2006)

#98

Post by [deleted] »

bradford wrote: post #16
KiwiCoder wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Doesn't the focus on data simply shift the problems you describe to telemetry decisions?

Yes, and, I might be misunderstanding your question, but I view that as a good thing. I don't ever want to spend my time in a meeting witnessing people bicker over where to position a dialog button, when you could just run an A/B test and let data guide the decision process.

[deleted]

Re: The Windows Shutdown crapfest (2006)

#99

Post by stan_rogers »

nxc18 wrote: post #51
wutbrodo wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> AFAIUI, Windows took the philosophy that the user should be the god of their system. By running software, the user has indicated to the OS that "This code is blessed and I want it to run". I really don't buy this. Aside from it being an incredibly dumb way of them to think that any process running was intentionally blessed by the user (have they _used_ a computer at any point in the last couple decades?), it's in d…

The forced restart experience indicates that windows is quite capable of killing any process it wants to. Otherwise you could just run an app to block that feature. If you read Windows Internals you'll get some insight into how shutdown works. There are lots of things that want to do special work on shutdown, and windows gives them time. Consider, for example, if you have an unsaved document in word; windows won't sh…

And I'd say that saying "not now" n times gives Windows fair warning that now is not a good time.

Re: The Windows Shutdown crapfest (2006)

#100

Post by userbinator »

chipperyman573 wrote: post #66
sz4kerto wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On desktops, yes. Other companies have been moving everything to the web, where telemetry is easier and more thorough.

The problem is that Web exists in a sandbox. They can collect data about my usage of their website, full stop (large sites like Facebook and Google get around this, but that's not really telemetry). With desktop there's no way of knowing what's collected with "telemetry"

Furthermore, when people choose to "go online" or "use the Internet" that's a (mostly) conscious decision --- they know, more or less, that what they're doing is actually reaching out to some other machine somewhere else, and adjust their behaviour accordingly.

The related blurring of the distinction between what's local and what's remote, also irritates me greatly. E.g. making one UI search both local file names and contents as well as the Internet.

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