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How Fact-Free Parenting Policies Rob Kids' Independence

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Re: How Fact-Free Parenting Policies Rob Kids' Independence

#31

Post by colechristensen »

dwaltrip wrote: post #23
new299 wrote: post #21

I'm sympathetic. But given the article is against "fact-free" parenting. I didn't find the data presented very compelling. Basically you'd need to know how common crime against children traveling unsupervised on buses in a similar scenario. The closest example presented is kids in New York riding the subway, so presenting stats on that would be useful. I'd also like more details on the Japanese example, it's honestly…

From the post: > And the odds of your child being kidnapped by a stranger on the bus? Incredibly long. A 2003 study in Canada found just one case nationwide of a stranger abducting a child, in the entire two years prior. I personally found the article very compelling. This kind of mindless fear, in direct contradiction of clear evidence, makes my blood boil.

It can be blamed fairly directly at the news selling your attention for advertisements. If they can frighten you they can get you to watch, and the attention of worrying parents has quite a bit of value. Capitalism doesn't work very well when combined with the task of serving the public with needed information.

Re: How Fact-Free Parenting Policies Rob Kids' Independence

#32

Post by new299 »

valgaze wrote: post #26
daxfohl wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Per walking / public transit to school, Japan is always the big example where many kids do so on their own. I feel like I've read this is mandatory there, but a quick search finds no backing evidence so maybe not. I'm curious though in Japan whether this is part of a general trend combating helicopter parenting, or if it's just a one-off social norm.

CBS Dec 2015 on Japan http://youtu.be/IkVvXVDs5aI Not sure if they're common/representative, but two interesting things the mother demonstrated (2:14): 1. She can track the kid via GPS 2. When asked, she said she would never let her son walk alone to school in the United States

It's been common in Japan since before the second world war.

My wife, who went to school in Japan, says it's seen as a good thing, to encourage independence.

There's a popular TV show, where they follow small kids (maybe 4 or 5?) on their first "trip alone" to do a chore, obviously they're being followed by a camera crew. But the TV show promotes kids taking responsibility for themselves (and it's cute of course).

The US is just seen as a much more dangerous country than Japan. I mean, it actually does have a higher crime rate.

Sorry, this is all purely anecdotal. But I believe it to be the general case (would as always love to see data).

Re: How Fact-Free Parenting Policies Rob Kids' Independence

#34

Post by bisRepetita »

new299 wrote: post #21

I'm sympathetic. But given the article is against "fact-free" parenting. I didn't find the data presented very compelling. Basically you'd need to know how common crime against children traveling unsupervised on buses in a similar scenario. The closest example presented is kids in New York riding the subway, so presenting stats on that would be useful. I'd also like more details on the Japanese example, it's honestly…

I have no idea how anyone could abduct 5 kids at once in a public place. Those little monsters scream loud and run fast.

Re: How Fact-Free Parenting Policies Rob Kids' Independence

#35

Post by foepys »

geff82 wrote: post #5

While helicopter parenting is a thing here in Germany, too, it is still possible to use your sane judgement as a parent for a lot of things. My daughter is not yet in school (so I am not into a peer group that talks about such stuff), but I see the 7-year-old neighbour kids walking to school without supervision, just as it has been the custom here in my own childhood. I have to admit there are fewer of those on the s…

There currently is discussion about how parent should stop bringing their kids to school and let them ride the bus or walk. In the often narrow streets in front of German schools, parents drive their children to the gate of the school in their SUVs and endanger everybody around them.

Re: How Fact-Free Parenting Policies Rob Kids' Independence

#36

Post by kazagistar »

bisRepetita wrote: post #34
new299 wrote: post #21

I'm sympathetic. But given the article is against "fact-free" parenting. I didn't find the data presented very compelling. Basically you'd need to know how common crime against children traveling unsupervised on buses in a similar scenario. The closest example presented is kids in New York riding the subway, so presenting stats on that would be useful. I'd also like more details on the Japanese example, it's honestly…

I have no idea how anyone could abduct 5 kids at once in a public place. Those little monsters scream loud and run fast.

They do that with their parents too.

Re: How Fact-Free Parenting Policies Rob Kids' Independence

#37

Post by Stratoscope »

Back around 1960, when I was eight and my little sister was six, we went with our dad to a chess tournament at the Mechanics' Institute in San Francisco. [1]

Of course if you're six and eight and not really into chess, nothing could be more boring. So we asked Dad if we could do something else. He gave us a few nickels and quarters and said "sure, how about riding the cable cars and go see the town?"

So we did! It was the most awesomest thing ever. We rode every cable car we could find, walked around town and saw the sights. The best part was when we found a street with our last name on it!

Everyone was nice. The cable car operators saw that we were a couple of kids riding around on our own, so they showed us how the grip and the brakes worked, pointed out interesting things to see, and made sure we knew how to ride safely - even when we were sitting on the outside of the cable car kicking our feet.

We forgot to ask for lunch money, so when we got back to the chess club as Dad was finishing his games, he took us out for a bite to eat and we told him all the stories of our adventure.

What a great day!

[1] https://chessclub.org

Re: How Fact-Free Parenting Policies Rob Kids' Independence

#38

Post by ArchD »

The way blame gets assigned and risk gets assessed by human society is often quite pathological.

In a typical setting, there are options A & B. As an example, let A be the option to allow young kids to ride independently on a bus and B the option to legislate against letting young kids ride independently on a bus.

The cost of A seems high to human emotions and the lazy thinker, typically involving rare but high-impact events (something really bad happening to the well-trained kid taking a bus) that get cherry-picked as important to consider.

The cost of B seems low to human emotions and the lazy thinker, typically involving diverse continual low-impact events (all kids affected by legislation losing out on chance to learn independence, environmental impact of using a car instead of public transport) that get neglected because of their low emotional appeal and more complicated accounting. (It may be hard to prove that lots of low-impact things add up to a big thing -- there are too many things and causal relationships to point to.)

In many cases, the cost of A is actually objectively lower than the cost of B, so A is the better option. In such cases, whereas all options and their consequences should be considered together with their probabilities, in reality, option B is often deemed to be the better choice, and A a bad choice, because the cost of A appeals more strongly to emotional. Consequently, someone who picked A (law-maker or bureaucrat) gets blamed but someone who picked B doesn't get blamed and is harder to blame, including in court. To protect themselves, they pick the inferior option.

I think this sort of pathological risk assessment is the root of the cover-your-ass culture that permeates society.

Re: How Fact-Free Parenting Policies Rob Kids' Independence

#39

Post by dagw »

dwaltrip wrote: post #23
new299 wrote: post #21

I'm sympathetic. But given the article is against "fact-free" parenting. I didn't find the data presented very compelling. Basically you'd need to know how common crime against children traveling unsupervised on buses in a similar scenario. The closest example presented is kids in New York riding the subway, so presenting stats on that would be useful. I'd also like more details on the Japanese example, it's honestly…

From the post: > And the odds of your child being kidnapped by a stranger on the bus? Incredibly long. A 2003 study in Canada found just one case nationwide of a stranger abducting a child, in the entire two years prior. I personally found the article very compelling. This kind of mindless fear, in direct contradiction of clear evidence, makes my blood boil.

While I agree with the general assertion in the article, cherry picking statistics for just one, very rare, crime isn't compelling evidence. Why not present the stats for all relevant crimes?

Re: How Fact-Free Parenting Policies Rob Kids' Independence

#40

Post by walterstucco »

plandis wrote: post #28
mnm1 wrote: post #15

I walked the whole city I was born in and took whatever busses and trolleys I wanted (I knew all the routes) when I was 7-9 years old (in the 80's) in a city of 300-400k people. This is simply insane and stupid. It's the reason why I will never have kids in the US or Canada. What kind of shitty culture and society allows this kind of degradation of kids? Is it any wonder they grow up not knowing how to live? It's sha…

Yes, tell me more about how shitty my culture (and by extension) the people of that culture are. Any other insult you want to lay on a group of 300+ million people that you've so carelessly stereotyped without giving a careful thought about it?

He's right
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