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Higher Education Erodes

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Re: Higher Education Erodes

#51
post #31

This trend is based in our culture's obsession with equality of outcomes. Rather than telling those who are struggling to change culture or virtue -- we assume the "system" is at fault and force a change there. As the author pointed out, HS graduation rate is the symptom not the cause to be treated. As an example, asians whether immigrant or American-born typically have the best credit, highest graduation rates, purs…

You make a good point but I think its not accurate to conflate race with culture, although the two do seem intertwined. I tend to believe that, if a white kid (say) was brought up by Asian parents, he/she would probably have the same qualities as an asian kid. So its not racist to say that Asian culture values different things than the mainstream American culture, which is perhaps why Asian Americans tend to be more…

I'm sorry to bring bad news, but you are probably wrong. Kids tend to be like their biological parents. http://quillette.com/2015/12/01/why-parenting-may-not-matter...

Re: Higher Education Erodes

#52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Shouldn't the market take care of this? Only if students can pick their HS, rather than be placed in one by their zip code. Bad schools, make bad students, but students can't leave bad schools, due to their zipcodes... Education reform on zipcodes is a MUST.

School of choice has been the law of the land in most states for a while now. http://ecs.force.com/mbdata/mbquestRT?rep=OE1601

It really depends though. In my state, schools will allow inter-district transfers but only if there are students wishing to leave the "good" school to attend the "bad" one. In practice, this means that there might be a dozen openings for 10,000 students who might apply to transfer. If you aren't a future Rhodes Scholar or Div 1 football superstar, there are no transfer options.

Re: Higher Education Erodes

#53
post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You make a good point but I think its not accurate to conflate race with culture, although the two do seem intertwined. I tend to believe that, if a white kid (say) was brought up by Asian parents, he/she would probably have the same qualities as an asian kid. So its not racist to say that Asian culture values different things than the mainstream American culture, which is perhaps why Asian Americans tend to be more…

I'm sorry to bring bad news, but you are probably wrong. Kids tend to be like their biological parents. http://quillette.com/2015/12/01/why-parenting-may-not-matter...

That is a very revealing article, thanks for sharing!

I think one interesting point the article makes is that parenting really doesn't matter much, except when parents do something extreme to affect the behaviors of their children. I wonder if parents' extreme desire for their children's scholastic success could be categorized as such? Anecdotally, growing up in India, I remember being hit by my parents as a younger kid; the physical violence stopped when I became a teenager, but my parents were quick to show their extreme displeasure and worry when I would get low grades in High School.

Not to suggest that all Asian/South Asian households are violent towards their children, of course. Although, I do trust research over anecdata, so I will agree with you that it might just be a genetic thing.

Re: Higher Education Erodes

#54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, love or have DeVos's plans, she's trying to change the status quo, while we spent the last 16 years doubling down on it.

Haha wait though, why is good to "change the status quo" if it results in deep cuts to public school funding (in support of "school choice")? https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/education/trumps-first-... Is this what you're saying? To talk about my views a little, I disagree with the whole, "No Child Left Behind" thing and increased standardized testing. I think we need to worry more about kids getting into what th…

I support deep cuts in public education funding to fund vouchers for school choice. I'm a left-leaning nerd, and my own personal experiences with public schools as a student and then as a parent have lead me to the conclusion that public schools are dealing with the same issues that General Motors dealt with in the 80's and 90's when trying to reform into a Lean production model:

They unionized while engaging in a model that worked for their respective time periods, and the unions interests don't allow for massive structural changes. Public schools worked very well when intelligent, educated women had almost zero career options other than teaching. They established pay structures that reward length of tenure over any other measures.

An immediate red flag for any institution is a persecution of innovators. This is a common occurrence in public school systems.

I grew up in a poor, rural public school system. Co-workers of mine who are 10 years older learned to program in the public schools they attended in wealthy suburbs. My schools were too busy focusing on teaching the 90% of students who they knew weren't going to college how to work on cars to worry about paying for a computer lab.

Had we had vouchers available to us, we would have done what we had begged the school board to do: create a small computer lab for the handful of students who were decent at math, and then pay the fee for the satellite TV learning program used by other rural schools. But no, they were driven by political demands to instead fund bullshit like trips for the chorus class to competitions.

I finally lost patience with the public schools my son attended last year, and put him in private school. The public school system here had decided that teaching cursive writing was not important, and completely removed it from the curriculum. As a result, my son had to learn cursive in 6th grade at his private school. He learned it in a few weeks of practice at home and while doing his normal course work. Ask yourself what kind of institution decides that cursive is no longer necessary and ensures that the kids won't be able to write a signature when they graduate? I think they did it because choosing to no longer teach something is a quick win.

Additionally, my son's coursework is much, much harder than it was previously. He's actually challenged by his classes now. I was lucky enough to have money to choose his school. His classmates weren't.

Re: Higher Education Erodes

#55

I've written this before, but part of the problem is that "college" means such a wide array of institutions, experiences, and instruction that it's almost meaningless: https://jakeseliger.com/2014/04/27/paying-for-the-party-eliz... . That being said, it's definitely true that the college system has evolved to perpetuate itself, as the author writes: Cal State is setting an example for the re-definition of “college re…

Yeah, the article spends a bunch of verbiage handwringing about standards at community colleges, which is not representative of higher education generally. Honestly, we do have a huge trade school system in the US, certainly not enough to handle all of the lower skilled people who 'should' be in them; community college is the closest large scale analog to a trade school system is the US. (And, arguably, we want or woodworkers to understand basic algebra, too, if we don't want or couches breaking...)

Re: Higher Education Erodes

#56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Within the context of a stable democracy founded upon a legacy of Judeo-Christian values which encourages individualism, yes this is true. I think that's the winning combination personally.

Care to elaborate? I fail to see the context yet your idea sounds interesting.

Western European culture in particular appears to have encouraged a degree of reward for individualism and self-advancement which Eastern cultures (for whatever reason) have not been able to sustain. Corruption and favoritism are also more commonly accepted, in part I suspect due to the influence of Confucianism and Buddhism. This tends to result in societies with less-democratic structures which ultimately entrench social status.

Most of us have probably had a college class or two with foreign students from Asia who somehow passed the very tough English component of the GMAT or other standardized test, yet barely spoke English. I certainly had a few such folks in mine. My intuition would be that test scores matter quite a bit, but honestly achieving them may not matter as much.

Social mobility is higher here in the U.S. than most Asian cultures, but we put a greater emphasis on honestly achieving it (or did in the past anyway). Combine that with an Asian cultural emphasis around testing/studying and I think you get an interesting dynamic.

Just my perspective.

Re: Higher Education Erodes

#57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Care to elaborate? I fail to see the context yet your idea sounds interesting.

Western European culture in particular appears to have encouraged a degree of reward for individualism and self-advancement which Eastern cultures (for whatever reason) have not been able to sustain. Corruption and favoritism are also more commonly accepted, in part I suspect due to the influence of Confucianism and Buddhism. This tends to result in societies with less-democratic structures which ultimately entrench…

Sigh, I figured this would get down-voted. Not surprised but kind of disappointed that, after giving my opinion and qualifying it as such, someone still felt it necessary.

Re: Higher Education Erodes

#58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Care to elaborate? I fail to see the context yet your idea sounds interesting.

Western European culture in particular appears to have encouraged a degree of reward for individualism and self-advancement which Eastern cultures (for whatever reason) have not been able to sustain. Corruption and favoritism are also more commonly accepted, in part I suspect due to the influence of Confucianism and Buddhism. This tends to result in societies with less-democratic structures which ultimately entrench…

Thanks for explaining in more detail. Sorry for the downvotes (certainly not mine).

While I want and connot comment on corruption etc I certainly wittness the (over-) emphasis on individualism in western cultures as oposed to eastern cultures (or is it just China?). Don't know though wheather this is comming from Judaism/Chrustianity. Might also be a thing

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