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Higher Education Erodes

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Re: Higher Education Erodes

#31

Post by pm90 »

program_whiz wrote: post #10

This trend is based in our culture's obsession with equality of outcomes. Rather than telling those who are struggling to change culture or virtue -- we assume the "system" is at fault and force a change there. As the author pointed out, HS graduation rate is the symptom not the cause to be treated. As an example, asians whether immigrant or American-born typically have the best credit, highest graduation rates, purs…

You make a good point but I think its not accurate to conflate race with culture, although the two do seem intertwined. I tend to believe that, if a white kid (say) was brought up by Asian parents, he/she would probably have the same qualities as an asian kid.

So its not racist to say that Asian culture values different things than the mainstream American culture, which is perhaps why Asian Americans tend to be more educated and gainfully employed.

Re: Higher Education Erodes

#32

Post by balsam »

baldfat wrote: post #11
notfromhere wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

that sounds like a terrible way to do college

I worked 3 years as a Resident Director. I blame the low academic standards for this way of college. People drop out of college just because they can't get to their seats for class on time and can't hand in assignments. The cost of failing to do these things don't really kick in federally till after their sophomore year. I can't tell you how many people were dumbfounded that their 1.25 GPA meant they had to go to com…

Lol are the chemicals for getting rid of their smells?

(Did you learn chemistry in a German environment, btw?)

Re: Higher Education Erodes

#33

Post by Agustus »

thebiglebrewski wrote: post #26
5trokerac3 wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, love or have DeVos's plans, she's trying to change the status quo, while we spent the last 16 years doubling down on it.

Haha wait though, why is good to "change the status quo" if it results in deep cuts to public school funding (in support of "school choice")? https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/education/trumps-first-... Is this what you're saying? To talk about my views a little, I disagree with the whole, "No Child Left Behind" thing and increased standardized testing. I think we need to worry more about kids getting into what th…

A test is an evaluation of knowledge leveraged or gained. If the test is seeing a significant number of failures, then it is indicates that instruction is not aligning with the evaluation metric. Students should be measured and addressed according to each individual's aptitude; there is no reason for our goal to be 100% students going to college. 100% going to college means the colleges have lowered their standards.

The current situation is that the public school system (K-12) has one goal: College bound. There is no method while in this system to adapt a student to a trade. Germany does a good job of telling students that they are not college material and then having a non shamed option to pursue (trade or apprenticeships). In America, someone saying they are without a college degree is shamed or looked down upon; unless they are an entrepreneur who makes it big.

Betsy deVos can upset the status quo because in the last twenty years have you seen a change in the education system that would address the individuals who are not college material? Is there a program in place that can upend the crazy bureaucracy that currently exists maintaining the aforementioned binary outcome from K-12.

As an aside, the federal government's education programs create compliance structures that increase rent seeking systems that increase the bureaucratic overhead. An example of this is to look at the increase in administrative personnel at a university for the past twenty years. Most colleges have a tooth to tail ratio increase, high schools have seen administrative bloat significantly increase to take advantage of the grants available.

Re: Higher Education Erodes

#34

Post by spraak »

baldfat wrote: post #11
notfromhere wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

that sounds like a terrible way to do college

I worked 3 years as a Resident Director. I blame the low academic standards for this way of college. People drop out of college just because they can't get to their seats for class on time and can't hand in assignments. The cost of failing to do these things don't really kick in federally till after their sophomore year. I can't tell you how many people were dumbfounded that their 1.25 GPA meant they had to go to com…

> where I have backing powder and hydrogenation peroxide

What's that for?

Re: Higher Education Erodes

#35

Post by busemann »

pm90 wrote: post #31
program_whiz wrote: post #10

This trend is based in our culture's obsession with equality of outcomes. Rather than telling those who are struggling to change culture or virtue -- we assume the "system" is at fault and force a change there. As the author pointed out, HS graduation rate is the symptom not the cause to be treated. As an example, asians whether immigrant or American-born typically have the best credit, highest graduation rates, purs…

You make a good point but I think its not accurate to conflate race with culture, although the two do seem intertwined. I tend to believe that, if a white kid (say) was brought up by Asian parents, he/she would probably have the same qualities as an asian kid. So its not racist to say that Asian culture values different things than the mainstream American culture, which is perhaps why Asian Americans tend to be more…

Do you think an adopted Black kid would on average develop the same qualities as an Asian kid in an Asian family?

Re: Higher Education Erodes

#36

Post by TheAdamAndChe »

pm90 wrote: post #31
program_whiz wrote: post #10

This trend is based in our culture's obsession with equality of outcomes. Rather than telling those who are struggling to change culture or virtue -- we assume the "system" is at fault and force a change there. As the author pointed out, HS graduation rate is the symptom not the cause to be treated. As an example, asians whether immigrant or American-born typically have the best credit, highest graduation rates, purs…

You make a good point but I think its not accurate to conflate race with culture, although the two do seem intertwined. I tend to believe that, if a white kid (say) was brought up by Asian parents, he/she would probably have the same qualities as an asian kid. So its not racist to say that Asian culture values different things than the mainstream American culture, which is perhaps why Asian Americans tend to be more…

> its not accurate to conflate race with culture

This is true, but there aren't regularly gathered statistics on what culture students are a part of. Race, however, is constantly tracked. There is generally a correlation between race and culture in America, and thus race is being used as a proxy for culture in the example.

Re: Higher Education Erodes

#37

Post by MereInterest »

5trokerac3 wrote: post #23
thebiglebrewski wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

...do you really think that neither party gives a shit though? These days I kind of find that hard to believe, at least as far as the people in the White House now...

Well, love or have DeVos's plans, she's trying to change the status quo, while we spent the last 16 years doubling down on it.

Given that it has already been tried in the Detroit area, and has resulted in the state of Michigan arguing that "literacy is not a right" [1], there's no reason to see that as a good thing. When a school system so utterly fails the students that 18-year-olds cannot read, expanding such a system is beyond incompetent.

Trying to change the status quo is only a good thing if you are trying to change it in a positive direction.

[1] http://www.freep.com/story/news/education/2016/11/21/state-m...

Re: Higher Education Erodes

#38

Post by Klockan »

The real problem is that if you need a person who knows things like reading, writing and basic maths then you better ask for a 4 year degree since high school graduates are no longer expected to know those things. This is a huge problem for all of those who actually learn the things you should in high school since they will be forced to pay a ton of money and spend 4 years just to show that they aren't idiots.

Re: Higher Education Erodes

#39

Post by mrhektor »

program_whiz wrote: post #10

This trend is based in our culture's obsession with equality of outcomes. Rather than telling those who are struggling to change culture or virtue -- we assume the "system" is at fault and force a change there. As the author pointed out, HS graduation rate is the symptom not the cause to be treated. As an example, asians whether immigrant or American-born typically have the best credit, highest graduation rates, purs…

I recently read Hillbilly Elegy, and one of the key insights I got from there was success seemed to be related to a stable home / family, and in particular a presence of mentors and role models.

I wouldn't be surprised if part of the success of Asians (South Asians + East Asians) also stems from the fact that divorce is looked down upon and extraordinary efforts are made to prevent it from happening. Divorcees are often social pariahs in these cultures.

Re: Higher Education Erodes

#40

Post by tzs »

There's a lot of misunderstanding of what Cal State is proposing doing with with students who need remedial help. They are NOT changing to give credit for high school level courses, or lowering standards so that people not ready for college can pass their courses.

What they are doing is simply changing the way they provide remedial help to those who need it.

The current way: those students spend a year taking only remedial classes, which are below college level and provide no college credit.

The new way: remedial help will be integrated with the regular college level courses.

How exactly that is done is up to the individual campuses. Some might offer slower sections, taking say two semesters to cover a subject instead of one. Some might offer extra tutoring.

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