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At liberal tech companies, those who disagree on politics say they’re isolated

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Re: At liberal tech companies, those who disagree on politics say they’re isolated

#261
post #206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Now it's 215+.... Very strange

Flame war detection. I don't know how advanced it is, but it's partly based on the number of comments and depth of comment threads, and their rate of growth. If you have a handful of very deep threads that have grown in just a short period of time, it's often a sign of negative, hostile discussions. When detected, those posts get their score (for how they should be ordered) severely reduced.

Yes, this thread tripped the overheated-discussion detector. We've turned it off for now, but it's not exactly a false positive.

Re: At liberal tech companies, those who disagree on politics say they’re isolated

#262

You should try being liberal in a red state. I've had people try to run me off of the road for an Obama sticker before. It's not social isolation here, it's straight up aggression.

You are aware of what you're doing and the reactions it will incite. What do you think happens to parked cars with MAGA stickers in California? Well you don't have to wonder, there are more than enough "social experiments" on youtube documenting this subject matter.

You're effectively arguing that you know (and possibly deserve) any reaction you get out of having a certain opinion. Justifying that with "well, it happens to others" is not great. You political opinions should never be justification for harm.

As the person whose post that was deleted mentioned, this is effectively the same type of argument as saying: "well, you know what will happen if you wear a sexy short skirt alone late at night".

In either case you don't deserve violence.

Re: At liberal tech companies, those who disagree on politics say they’re isolated

#263

If your politics, or the beliefs of those who share your politics, make your coworkers feel hurt, scared, and angry, then I see absolutely no reason to bring them to your workplace. It's basic human interaction 101. And sorry, but insisting that people grow a thicker skin won't work, because that's not how people operate. I discuss controversial topics in person with my close friends, and I don't feel any poorer for…

This is a two-way street. As a Christian, I get upset when I hear my employer promote Bhuddist values (inviting Bhuddist monks on-site to otherwise-nonreligious corporate events) while also parading their role in defeating legislation to protect religious clergy who hold traditionally-Christian beliefs from being sued over their beliefs. This communicates to me both "you're the enemy, and we are working hard to make…

I might be misunderstanding your comment, but I'm curious to hear more about why you have felt that Buddhist monks have been communicated as being "directly opposite" to Christian clergy? Having studied and adopted practices from both traditions, this statement doesn't seem to accurately reflect core values from either of them.

(I understand that "Christian" and "Buddhist" are very broad categories, and that there are myriad forms contained within each of them...)

Re: At liberal tech companies, those who disagree on politics say they’re isolated

#264
post #139
post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Haha, exactly! You know what promotes discourse effectively? Calling people racist.

The conversations on race I've seen recently have been more about institutionalized racism than personally attacking someone for being "a racist". So if one person advocates for a policy that would disadvantage minorities, someone else might point out that it's racist without ascribing some irredeemable evil to the person.

But you can just say "this will disadvantage minorities" and your point has been made, without even saying "it's racist". Then again, I don't really disagree with you on your larger point.

Re: At liberal tech companies, those who disagree on politics say they’re isolated

#265
post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> [if someone thinks people should] be treated differently because of how they were born [then outrage they face is justified] This has always piqued my curiosity -- would you mind explaining? Why is this such a deep tenet that I hear it so often as justification for shunning people? Apparently, there is something egregious about "treating people differently" because of "how they were born." What is wrong about this?…

It's all fine for qualities that don't get tied to your (or your group's) personal and social identity. To go over your examples - the singing case is rather clear-cut, so is the math one (barring the Tiger Mother meme). Psychological damage starts entering into "neurodiversity" sphere. And about deaf people - there are many deaf communities which don't consider this as a disability, but as a different type of experi…

My examples are just 4 quick things off the top of my head, there are probably many more. I also don't see your point about the deaf person (they're still treated differently -- you wouldn't talk vocally to them).

I agree with your rule of thumb, but that seems like a positive description of the situation, not the normative one I'm looking for. You're giving me the conditions under which there will be outrage for discrimination (i.e., there exists a socially vocal/outspoken group that identifies with the quality being discriminated on). However, I was trying to tease out what the moral rule purported by such groups could be, since I see the "don't discriminate for how I was born" claim so often (and so forcefully put). I would suppose there should be some deep moral law being broken.

Re: At liberal tech companies, those who disagree on politics say they’re isolated

#266
post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is it knee-jerk and shallow? If you voted for Trump you either directly support Trump's social policies or you don't think they were abhorrent enough to not vote for him.

I'm not pro-life, but I feel like if I thought abortion was actually murder of babies , I think I'd probably hold my nose and vote for whoever had the best chance of ending that practice. (Though, I also believe that would be Clinton--banning abortion is less viable than proving effective sex ed, and probably not hugely more effective.) Similarly, if I had spent much time in Libya, I might consider holding my nose an…

> ... I feel like if I thought abortion was actually murder of babies, I think I'd probably hold my nose and vote for whoever had the best chance of ending that practice.

I didn't vote for Trump, but I know a lot of people that did.

Abortion is actually a huge part of it. To the point that I'm wondering why Trump-voter-haters think the election was just about xenophobia or something.

There was also a non-trivial portion of the right who expected things like the Damore firing and voted for the person least likely to contribute to that future. They think that the Pope himself could easily become a persona non grata at Google or certain parts of the national bureaucracy.

Re: At liberal tech companies, those who disagree on politics say they’re isolated

#267
post #7

I don't think it's even just conservatives, anyone who has an even slightly different opinion than the golden calves US libertarian society has set up is shunned. It's closer to religion at this point. I consider myself liberal, but (and?) I disagree on various topics, mostly on affirmative action. However, if you think that introducing more bias is a bad way to solve existing bias, you're a racist. It's not "I disag…

> than the golden calves US libertarian society has set up is shunned This doesn't make any sense to me - as an (extreme) libertarian, I see very little progress on that front. The Democrats and Republicans have each used the libertarian "brand" when it has suited them, but neither have implemented any actual libertarian positions in my lifetime, at least not that I can recall. Out of curiosity, are you perhaps viewi…

> are you perhaps viewing American politics from the perspective of someone accustomed to European politics?

I probably am. With the "golden calves" point, I meant that there are specific topics that are adhered to religiously, and any attempt to discuss them produces a reflexive negative reaction. I'm not even talking about extreme ideology, I'm talking about things like the Google memo, which, although it did have some points that didn't really stand (and which should have sparked discussion, as the memo intended), didn't merit the shitstorm that ensued, in my opinion.

I see this in various friends of mine, when we discuss, for example, hiring quotas. Personally, I generally consider hiring quotas a bad practice, and discussed this with a friend, who is heavily in favor of them. However, when I told him about how my sister got passed over for hiring in favor of a male competitor as a result of affirmative action (lawyers here are overwhelmingly female), I could sense that my friend didn't agree with it either. It felt like his opinion wasn't "minorities should have an advantage", but rather "this particular group of people should have an advantage even where they're the majority". That strikes me as a fundamentally non-rational position.

Another point is that I feel that if you're a white, middle-class male, you can basically never be right. If someone puts you down, you can't complain because there are other people who are less privileged than you. It's the "starving children in Africa" argument.

Take all this with a grain of salt, though, as the society I live in isn't like this. All of the above is what I gather from talking to my american friends and colleagues, so I may be off the mark or wrong in many things.

Re: At liberal tech companies, those who disagree on politics say they’re isolated

#268

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't agree with those policies, but can you imagine any non-evil reason a rational person would hold those beliefs?

Logical reason for wanting to restrict the rights of gay people and ban all Muslims? I'm all ears, I literally cannot think of a rational reason for supporting such policies.

The guy is a pathological liar, there is not one proposal I've seen that would, "restrict the rights of gay people" or "ban all Muslims."

Re: At liberal tech companies, those who disagree on politics say they’re isolated

#269

I grew up in Texas but worked in Silicon Valley for a few years. One of the toughest adjustments was going from a small conservative town to a major liberal populace. It was astonishing the number of people who got angry _at me_ for having a different opinion then they did. At one workplace I saw two coworkers get into a fist fight because the liberal was "offended" that the conservative differed on a viewpoint. Go t…

I'm not sure why we'd expect politics not to be highly contentious and divisive. It's life-or-death stuff. Do you force a teenager carry an unwanted pregnancy to term, or allow her doctor to kill an organism that is, at least genetically, human? Do we let unfettered immigration undermine the welfare state, or break apart families who are just trying to have a better life? What kind of legacy will we leave our children? It's bizarre to thing these sorts of questions wouldn't lead to fist fights.

I myself tend to get along with people with a wide range of political views. But I've always assumed it's because I'm a bit of a sociopath. I don't care enough to put other peoples' struggles above my personal relationships.

Re: At liberal tech companies, those who disagree on politics say they’re isolated

#270
post #265

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's all fine for qualities that don't get tied to your (or your group's) personal and social identity. To go over your examples - the singing case is rather clear-cut, so is the math one (barring the Tiger Mother meme). Psychological damage starts entering into "neurodiversity" sphere. And about deaf people - there are many deaf communities which don't consider this as a disability, but as a different type of experi…

My examples are just 4 quick things off the top of my head, there are probably many more. I also don't see your point about the deaf person (they're still treated differently -- you wouldn't talk vocally to them). I agree with your rule of thumb, but that seems like a positive description of the situation, not the normative one I'm looking for. You're giving me the conditions under which there will be outrage for dis…

I don't know if there even is a moral rule there. I feel like the root cause is simply people being insecure about threats to their identity, and anything above that being just rationalizations.
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