They talk about CSS, JS and Images being excluded from the Wordpress GPL. Isn't this 99% of what most themes are made of? What Chris has is not a theme but more of a dynamic theme generator. What he should do is make Thesis additionally compatible with another CMS/Blogging tool so that the claims about Thesis delivering nothing but a blank page without Wordpress will no longer be true. I appreciate the work of the op…
Would WordPress Sue The Maker Of Thesis WordPress Theme? - Mixergy Interview
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Re: Would WordPress Sue The Maker Of Thesis WordPress Theme? - Mixergy Interview
#82Earlier quoted context omitted.
Let me see if I follow you. If Matt is correct, Chris can still charge for themes, but isn't required to make it available for free. If you purchase Chris' theme, and sell it to me for $10, if Matt is correct, Chris has no claim against you, but if Chris is correct, he does. Is all that right?
Almost - the GPL wouldn't apply to the CSS, JS or HTML of his themes, nor would the GPL nullify trademark and copyright. Still doesn't mean that his claim would hold up in court but it probably wouldn't be completely hopeless either.
So if I tried to redistribute the theme as "Thesis", Chris could (1) sue me for trademark infringement. He could also (2) file a DMCA claim against me (or sue me for violating his copyright), if my product included his copyrighted CSS/JS/images/etc.
These remaining trademark and copyright protections are why Matt asserts that applying the GPL license to the Thesis theme would not hurt Chris' business.
Re: Would WordPress Sue The Maker Of Thesis WordPress Theme? - Mixergy Interview
#83Trying my best not to sound rude, but Chris Pearson sounds extremely obnoxious. His analogies are all over the place and very defensive; most likely because he realizes that he is on the wrong end of the debate. The license explicitly says it has to be GPL. End of discussion. He is making up his own rules!
"The license explicitly says it has to be GPL. End of discussion. He is making up his own rules!" The license does. However, I don't think his theme uses actual wordpress code beyond function calls. I would hardly call this a derivative work.
WordPress has a public API... several of them, in fact. A theme doesn't use those, it makes direct calls to internal WP code, and it uses WordPress internal data structures. This is enough to make it a derivative work.
From http://www.gnu.org/licenses/old-licenses/gpl-2.0-faq.html#Me... :
"Combining two modules means connecting them together so that they form a single larger program. If either part is covered by the GPL, the whole combination must also be released under the GPL—if you can't, or won't, do that, you may not combine them.
What constitutes combining two parts into one program? This is a legal question, which ultimately judges will decide. We believe that a proper criterion depends both on the mechanism of communication (exec, pipes, rpc, function calls within a shared address space, etc.) and the semantics of the communication (what kinds of information are interchanged).
If the modules are included in the same executable file, they are definitely combined in one program. If modules are designed to run linked together in a shared address space, that almost surely means combining them into one program.
By contrast, pipes, sockets and command-line arguments are communication mechanisms normally used between two separate programs. So when they are used for communication, the modules normally are separate programs. But if the semantics of the communication are intimate enough, exchanging complex internal data structures, that too could be a basis to consider the two parts as combined into a larger program."
Ultimately, it is a matter of interpretation, but all previous interpretation, including those made in courts of law, pretty much universally agree with Matt on this one. It's very difficult to consider a theme to be a "separate program" when it's deep-linking to internal functions and data structures and it also cannot run independently.
Re: Would WordPress Sue The Maker Of Thesis WordPress Theme? - Mixergy Interview
#84Chris Pearson's defense is thin at best: Switching to GPL wouldn't affect my business at all! It just rubs me the wrong way! Additionally, he comes across as a real jerk. EDIT: After listening to the whole thing I am appalled by Chris Pearson's lack of understanding about licensing and his offensive attitude. Matt Mullenweg deserves an award for being so gracious and patient.
"Chris Pearson's defense is thin at best: Switching to GPL wouldn't affect my business at all! It just rubs me the wrong way!" It will ruin his business. Anyone that buys the thesis theme will be able to share it for free (and he will have no legal recourse). "Additionally, he comes across as a real jerk." so does Richard Stallman. I think he is sick of the GPL zealots hounding him. I would be too. "Matt Mullenweg de…
People who are doing this sort of thing aren't going to be stopped by text in a license.
Re: Would WordPress Sue The Maker Of Thesis WordPress Theme? - Mixergy Interview
#85Earlier quoted context omitted.
"It's almost like you could license your product and explain how it must be used, and then someone comes along and decides not to obey the license just because they don't feel like obeying it." Not really. Thesis shouldn't be considered a derivative work. If it is, than any application that runs under Linux should also be considered a derivative work (you need Linux to run the app..right?). Should any app compiled us…
"According to WordPress' intent stated here: http://wordpress.org/news/2009/07/themes-are-gpl-too/ the themes are being considered a derivative work. I'm not a lawyer and honestly not a huge fan of the GPL, but this seems pretty clear-cut to me." I don't see how they can automatically assume that all themes are under the GPL license. If you make a theme that does not use any existing wordpress code, it wouldn't be co…
I personally would consider that to be impossible, however, you are basically correct.
In this specific case though, that does not apply. Thesis makes heavy use of WordPress code.
Re: Would WordPress Sue The Maker Of Thesis WordPress Theme? - Mixergy Interview
#86Looking at the quote below from the Software Freedom Law Center, if you replace "PHP" with "VBA" and "Wordpress" with "Excel" it would imply that all Excel macros are derivative works of Excel and so only Microsoft can distribute them.
The following is taken from http://wordpress.org/news/2009/07/themes-are-gpl-too/, bits in [] are my addition:
The PHP[VBA] elements, taken together, are clearly derivative of WordPress[Excel] code. The template[macro] is loaded via the include()[whatever] function. Its contents are combined with the WordPress[Excel] code in memory to be processed by PHP[VBA] along with (and completely indistinguishable from) the rest of WordPress[Excel]. The PHP[VBA] code consists largely of calls to WordPress[Excel] functions and sparse, minimal logic to control which WordPress[Excel] functions are accessed and how many times they will be called. They are derivative of WordPress[Excel] because every part of them is determined by the content of the WordPress[Excel] functions they call. As works of authorship, they are designed only to be combined with WordPress[Excel] into a larger work.
Re: Would WordPress Sue The Maker Of Thesis WordPress Theme? - Mixergy Interview
#87Earlier quoted context omitted.
Hopefully they just sue him to so that he learns the value of a contract.
Was there a contract? The murky legal problem with the GPL and other free software licenses is that there isn't any consideration (no exchange of money), or proof of offer and acceptance. It's a lot easier to prove with paid software and the clicking of a checkbox. IANAL, but it would be interesting to know if there's any legal precedents for the enforceability of free/gpl/open source licenses.
The GPL is well-tested in that respect.
Re: Would WordPress Sue The Maker Of Thesis WordPress Theme? - Mixergy Interview
#88I've been spending a lot of time today wondering why Matt cares so much about what license Chris uses - it seems like no real harm is being done to either party here, but both parties are digging in their heels so strongly I find it hard to believe it's purely a philosophical difference. I just had a thought, and I'd like to sanity check it. I don't know Matt or Chris, but I use both Wordpress and Thesis every day, s…
If Thesis was GPL, there would be a lot more Thesis powered Wordpress blogs out there. I think Matt attributes a lot of Wordpress' success to the open community the GPL allows, which evidently leads to more and more people using Wordpress as the platform of choice.
And like Matt said, if the members of the Wordpress community start thinking that its OK to not use GPL, it could be slippery for Wordpress as it will effect growth.
??
Re: Would WordPress Sue The Maker Of Thesis WordPress Theme? - Mixergy Interview
#89I don't understand why just because something requires Wordpress to work it is a derivative work? Surely anything designed to work on any platform would be a derivative work by that argument? The GPL talks about containing the original Program, not requiring it. Looking at the quote below from the Software Freedom Law Center, if you replace "PHP" with "VBA" and "Wordpress" with "Excel" it would imply that all Excel m…
This is not the case for WordPress themes. Themes use the internal structures of WordPress to do their work, not the public APIs that WordPress provides.
Re: Would WordPress Sue The Maker Of Thesis WordPress Theme? - Mixergy Interview
#90Trying my best not to sound rude, but Chris Pearson sounds extremely obnoxious. His analogies are all over the place and very defensive; most likely because he realizes that he is on the wrong end of the debate. The license explicitly says it has to be GPL. End of discussion. He is making up his own rules!
Mr. Chris Pearson , excuse me Sir, I don't want to be rude but you are an idiot, but the bad part of it: he doesn't even know it. Wordpress is GPL, everything build on Wordpress has to be GPL as the licence states. End of the discussion, he has to understand, it's not about what he wants or doesn't want, what he thinks or doesn't think, those are just the fact, you don't like it, go pick another platform. Mr. Chris P…