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A Japanese Pen Maker Anticipated the Fountain-Pen Renaissance

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Re: A Japanese Pen Maker Anticipated the Fountain-Pen Renaissance

#81
post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The ways in which people express status varies from social group to group So does this notion only apply to people who demonstrate this status? Does it apply to someone who buys an expensive fountain pen, keeps it in their desk drawer, and uses it to write, but doesn't talk/boast about it? It seems a bit of a sweeping statement to claim that owning a pen is vain, and could use a bit more clarification/justification t…

I never claimed that 'owning a pen is vain'. I said that one can only understand its cultural significance through careful sociological reflection. That is a truism to me. "If any such claim relies on ethnographic or sociological studies, then wouldn't it be appropriate to cite those when making such a claim?" I think you might have wrong end of the stick. I have no idea if there are any studies on the cultural capit…

When you buy something, part of the money you forfeit is used to pay for the resources used (including labor) and the rest is profit. Only the first part is actually negative for the world, the second is merely an accounting line, a delegation of some of your power to someone else. As these pens are likely to have a huge profit margin, the actual negative impact is small, and most of the money remains, ready to be used for the alleviation of the indigent.

By the way, I never bought a product for showing off in my life. Wait, I lie: I bought a $30 tshirt because it had a cool version of the Debian logo. But otherwise, I don't have anything to rationalize :)

Re: A Japanese Pen Maker Anticipated the Fountain-Pen Renaissance

#82
post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I never claimed that 'owning a pen is vain'. My comment referred to the GP's statement: Physical possessions like this pen is just so vain, shallow, and meaningless. When I ask "Where is the cut-off", it's to prompt thought, to draw out an answer to the question: where is that cut-off? "obviously buying a $4000 pen…is utterly grotesque" So where should the cut-off be? Is it $3500? $350? Where does the price of a pen…

OK, there's two things here. First, the symbolic capital of a pen. Second, its role in political economy. IMO both are relevant to the evaluation of anybody who buys the $4000 pen. There is a distributional element (the money is better spent on those who actually need it), an ideological element (you live in a system that inculcates desires for useless commodities), a cultural element (you are playing a status game i…

  the symbolic capital of a pen…
  (a system that inculcates desires for useless commodities)…
  (a status game in which useless things are feted).
To me, a pen is utilitarian, not useless. I can see how the additional usefulness of a $4000 pen Vs a $400 pen could theoretically be questioned, but having no experience of using either, I wouldn't like to argue that case.

  I don't think there is an axiomatic answer about the 'cut-off' above: it's contextual.
The reason I'm specifically questioning this is that your responses seem to demonstrate an axiomatic answer: $4000. That figure (and presumably any amount above $4000) is, in your words, "obviously utterly grotesque", but there's no indication how you came to that figure.

  in the global political, economic and cultural conditions
  in which we live the purchase of a $4000 pen is grotesque
Are you saying that for everyone, the purchase of a $4000 pen is grotesque? That context does not matter once the sum reaches $4000? I appreciate there may be shades of gray, but is there a range where you would start to challenge this? Say, 10 times the median price for a pen in that particular location? What's justifying that figure of $4000, other than "it's obvious"?

When it comes to challenging behaviour, and especially describing certain behaviour as "grotesque", it feels like there might be a better way to separate them.

The numbers matter when it comes to discussing (and influencing/lobbying) policy. The world's richest 8 people have the same wealth as 50% of the world's population [1]. Is that grotesque? Bill Gates uses some of that wealth to help some of the poorest people in the world. Does that offset his grotesque wealth? Does that justify it?

In the USA, a CEO earns 2,617 times the average salary for American workers [2]. Is that grotesque?

In the UK, the average FTSE100 CEO earns 129 times their average employee. 20 years ago, that figure was only 45 times, or roughly a third of the current inequality [2]. Which is fairer? What could be done to make things more fair?

These questions and discussions are important, because they can inform policy. For example, tax rates and bands - such as 90% tax rate on earnings over $X (which has been done in the past, but seems to be politically untenable at the moment). If you want to call certain spending grotesque, it's helpful to have a reasonable rationale for that figure.

[1] https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2017/jan/16/w...

[2] https://www.nytimes.com/2017/08/29/business/britain-ceo-exec...

Re: A Japanese Pen Maker Anticipated the Fountain-Pen Renaissance

#83
post #19

Nakaya pens are prime example of Veblen good - luxury goods for which the quantity demanded increases as the price increases. The old desire of building your identity around what you own instead of what you do is not going anywhere. Good for them picking up the extra money people have. Of course Nakaya pens are good writing pens, but the quality of pen as a tool levels around $50-$70 price mark. Extra is just collect…

> The old desire of building your identity around what you own instead of what you do is not going anywhere. Good for them picking up the extra money people have. That's really spot on. We could have an incredibly fulfilling life while living frugally. Writing books, making art, creating new software, doing research, etc. Creating and understanding yourself better can be healing. Physical possessions like this pen is…

There is nothing wrong with physical possession like this pen. It just depends on what you make of them.

There are guys who are just pen enthusiasts, and own these pens because it's their passion. They are often very interesting guys, like living encyclopedia of pens.

They are some who like to own something precious as an extension of themselves. It's their pen, they have memories associated with it. Maybe they bought it when they finished their studies, or it was given by someone dear, or maybe it was carefully chosen because it matches ones personality. Pulling out this pen gives them feelings that a disposable BIC doesn't.

Or maybe this pen was bought as a form of support. Because the owner maybe thinks that he should reward companies that do things by hands, or use certain materials or design, reasoning that if they don't buy, on one will, and this way of doing things will disappear.

And this physical possession is not just a meaningless lump of material. More often then not, it is the result of hard work. I am often amazed at the engineering and craftsmanship behind everyday items. Even good marketing is worthy of respect.

So don't belittle physical possessions.

Re: A Japanese Pen Maker Anticipated the Fountain-Pen Renaissance

#84
post #77
post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I never claimed that 'owning a pen is vain'. My comment referred to the GP's statement: Physical possessions like this pen is just so vain, shallow, and meaningless. When I ask "Where is the cut-off", it's to prompt thought, to draw out an answer to the question: where is that cut-off? "obviously buying a $4000 pen…is utterly grotesque" So where should the cut-off be? Is it $3500? $350? Where does the price of a pen…

> So where should the cut-off be? Is it $3500? $350? This kind of debate tactic always puzzles me, forcing a binary state on an opinion. The quoted bit even implies a spectrum, given the adjective 'utterly'. I can't imagine you saying the same to a friend who said "I went for a very long drive last weekend" > "What's the cutoff for long? 50 miles? 100 miles?"

  forcing a binary state on an opinion.
Shades are OK too. For example: "$4000 is grotesque, $400 is sketchy, anything above $100 could potentially be justified, and below $100 is safe territory".

It doesn't have to be binary, but when someone states a certain figure - "$4000 is obviously grotesque" - then a binary state has already been established. $4000 and above is grotesque, below is, well, possibly grotesque, possibly not. Uncertain, clearly. That seems a sensible starting point for a discussion, to understand what makes $4000 grotesque, and does it also apply to $3000, $2000 - to understand the rationale for such a statement.

  I can't imagine you saying the same to a friend who said 
  "I went for a very long drive last weekend"
  > "What's the cutoff for long? 50 miles? 100 miles?"
I can imagine asking "So how long is long?"

I grew up in mid Cornwall, where a trip to Plymouth (55 miles) was generally considered a long drive. These days, I consider driving to Chamonix (780 miles) a long-ish drive, and to Istanbul a properly long drive. So knowing that my idea of a "long drive" has changed over time, and knowing my notion could easily differ from theirs, yes, I'd easily ask what they considered a long drive.

Re: A Japanese Pen Maker Anticipated the Fountain-Pen Renaissance

#86
post #79
post #36

I believe kids in Germany are still learning to write with fountain-pens.

In France as well, though less often than in the past. Most pupils stop using them later on once they are allowed to use roller pens, though.

I stopped with pencils as soon as I learned to type on a mechanical typewriter in school. Well, as much as I was allowed to, teachers were much happier when they were able to read whar I wrote :)

Re: A Japanese Pen Maker Anticipated the Fountain-Pen Renaissance

#88
post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

OK, there's two things here. First, the symbolic capital of a pen. Second, its role in political economy. IMO both are relevant to the evaluation of anybody who buys the $4000 pen. There is a distributional element (the money is better spent on those who actually need it), an ideological element (you live in a system that inculcates desires for useless commodities), a cultural element (you are playing a status game i…

the symbolic capital of a pen… (a system that inculcates desires for useless commodities)… (a status game in which useless things are feted). To me, a pen is utilitarian, not useless. I can see how the additional usefulness of a $4000 pen Vs a $400 pen could theoretically be questioned, but having no experience of using either, I wouldn't like to argue that case. I don't think there is an axiomatic answer about the '…

I am not formulating policy, so I need not act as such.

Pen's are not useless. But the clear implicature of what I said is that the functional difference between an ordinary pen and a $4000 pen is negligible such that the $4000 pen is useless given that fact (i.e. one might as well go ahead and use a normal pen).

That is not an axiomatic answer, it's my answer under the present state of things (I was explicit on that point).

I don't really understand the point of this pedantry? I think all of the things you list are fairly grotesque. But I don't have any great interest in wandering from a discussion about conspicuous consumption to one about tax policy. To be frank: I am interested in alternatives to capitalism, and a great deal of the existing order of things bothers me profoundly.

"If you want to call certain spending grotesque, it's helpful to have a reasonable rationale for that figure."

I have already given you a rationale. To claim otherwise is supercilious. You may not like it; but there is one.

Re: A Japanese Pen Maker Anticipated the Fountain-Pen Renaissance

#89
post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lamy Safari [1] is generally considered a good "starter" pen. I love them and they aren't too expensive. It is big enough that it is hard to lose, so if you keep it for like a year or two+, it'll end up being cheaper than ballpoints. You might want to look at different nibs though, to find the right amount of fineness you want. [1] https://smile.amazon.com/Lamy-Safari-Fountain-Pen-Charcoal/d...

I've been using disposable Pilot Varsity fountain pens. They're perfectly decent, medium nib pens that write smoothly. I've never had one leak or stain my fingers, and you don't have to mess with refills. I had given up on fountain pens, as I always had problems with them clogging or leaking or just not being able to find refills. The Varsity has me using fountain pens again. At about $2/per, there's no reason not to…

Personally I like refilling the pen. It is a lot cheaper and you get better inks.
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