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Would WordPress Sue The Maker Of Thesis WordPress Theme? - Mixergy Interview

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Re: Would WordPress Sue The Maker Of Thesis WordPress Theme? - Mixergy Interview

#71

Post by icey »

rick888 wrote: post #68
rick888 wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"It's almost like you could license your product and explain how it must be used, and then someone comes along and decides not to obey the license just because they don't feel like obeying it." Not really. Thesis shouldn't be considered a derivative work. If it is, than any application that runs under Linux should also be considered a derivative work (you need Linux to run the app..right?). Should any app compiled us…

"According to WordPress' intent stated here: http://wordpress.org/news/2009/07/themes-are-gpl-too/ the themes are being considered a derivative work. I'm not a lawyer and honestly not a huge fan of the GPL, but this seems pretty clear-cut to me." I don't see how they can automatically assume that all themes are under the GPL license. If you make a theme that does not use any existing wordpress code, it wouldn't be co…

FTA:

"The PHP elements, taken together, are clearly derivative of WordPress code.... They are derivative of WordPress because every part of them is determined by the content of the WordPress functions they call. As works of authorship, they are designed only to be combined with WordPress into a larger work."

Re: Would WordPress Sue The Maker Of Thesis WordPress Theme? - Mixergy Interview

#72

Post by jseifer »

Some choice quotes from Chris Pearson in this interview:

"This can't be understated or just glossed over as if it's not true. My position at the market is pretty much at the top. I'm the most visible person in this space so everyone's gunning for me. Everyone wants a piece."

"There's no resolving this. Either you sue me or you don't. Or you continue to talk, or you don't."

"I've been arguably one of the top 3 most important figures in the history wordpress."

Regarding GPL enforcement: "When I was in college in Georgia it was apparently illegal to get a blow job. But that's one of those laws that's never enforced. So that brings up a valid question. What kind of law is it if it's unenforceable?"

"At this time I feel like my method of operation is exactly congruent with my feelings about everything."

"I don't have time for rhetoric, I have time for action."

"There's no incentive that incentivises me to do anything. All of my decisions come from within."

Also, he calls the GPL a flimsy and unenforceable license. I agree with everyone calling Matt gracious and patient. My respect for Matt shot up after listening to this.

Re: Would WordPress Sue The Maker Of Thesis WordPress Theme? - Mixergy Interview

#73

Post by slantyyz »

dantheman wrote: post #40
dantheman wrote: post #15

Wow, the amount of ignorance displayed here is significant. It's painful just listening to it, and the blatant double think -- I'm protecting my rights by disregarding your rights...

Hopefully they just sue him to so that he learns the value of a contract.

Was there a contract?

The murky legal problem with the GPL and other free software licenses is that there isn't any consideration (no exchange of money), or proof of offer and acceptance.

It's a lot easier to prove with paid software and the clicking of a checkbox.

IANAL, but it would be interesting to know if there's any legal precedents for the enforceability of free/gpl/open source licenses.

Re: Would WordPress Sue The Maker Of Thesis WordPress Theme? - Mixergy Interview

#74

Post by jscore »

Haven't seen the interview but I'll give my $0.02 here.

I use WordPress and just started using Thesis, I think it's a well designed product, albeit a bit simple, but does that it supposed to do really well. It's a nice theme, and very easy to configure either from the WP UI or via the filters/actions. It definitely extends WordPress nicely. It's by far my favorite theme and I plan on using it on my projects (and I must've tried a million themes).

Now, if Thesis becomes open source, you can forget about quality, premium themes. Without monetary incentive, people won't rise up to create a good theme, and believe me, I checked WP themes, and most them are just crap.

Second, what's the fuss? Thesis is part of the WP eco-system, and its a mutual relationship. The more Thesis grows, the more WP grows. I'm sure he has his moral views, etc, but if someone wants to create a premium product (not using WP's code) and charge for it, let them do it.

Re: Would WordPress Sue The Maker Of Thesis WordPress Theme? - Mixergy Interview

#75

Post by photomatt »

joshkaufman wrote: post #69

I've been spending a lot of time today wondering why Matt cares so much about what license Chris uses - it seems like no real harm is being done to either party here, but both parties are digging in their heels so strongly I find it hard to believe it's purely a philosophical difference. I just had a thought, and I'd like to sanity check it. I don't know Matt or Chris, but I use both Wordpress and Thesis every day, s…

We've never incorporated anyone's code without their full participation and there's no code in Thesis I would want anywhere near core anyway. Thesis is a triumph of marketing, not technical competence. (In fact it relies on people not being able to question its incredulous claims about structure and SEO.) The few cool ideas it has were done in other themes first anyway. On a tech level, WooThemes is doing far more interesting work. (And they have been involved in core development.)

Re: Would WordPress Sue The Maker Of Thesis WordPress Theme? - Mixergy Interview

#76

Post by Concours »

pavs wrote: post #3

Trying my best not to sound rude, but Chris Pearson sounds extremely obnoxious. His analogies are all over the place and very defensive; most likely because he realizes that he is on the wrong end of the debate. The license explicitly says it has to be GPL. End of discussion. He is making up his own rules!

Mr. Chris Pearson , excuse me Sir, I don't want to be rude but you are an idiot, but the bad part of it: he doesn't even know it. Wordpress is GPL, everything build on Wordpress has to be GPL as the licence states. End of the discussion, he has to understand, it's not about what he wants or doesn't want, what he thinks or doesn't think, those are just the fact, you don't like it, go pick another platform. Mr. Chris Pearson , you are wrong, it's not about what you decide or not, those are the rules of GPL.

Re: Would WordPress Sue The Maker Of Thesis WordPress Theme? - Mixergy Interview

#77

Post by Concours »

pavs wrote: post #7
babyboy808 wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I honestly thought I was the only thinking this!

Confirmed this guy is obnoxious: http://i.imgur.com/wffx2.png My respect for Matt just jumped ten-fold for being so calm with this guy and I am not even a fan-boy.

fully agree, I was impress from Matt, seems to be an extremely smart and calm Guy.

Re: Would WordPress Sue The Maker Of Thesis WordPress Theme? - Mixergy Interview

#79

Post by jackowayed »

photomatt wrote: post #75
joshkaufman wrote: post #69

I've been spending a lot of time today wondering why Matt cares so much about what license Chris uses - it seems like no real harm is being done to either party here, but both parties are digging in their heels so strongly I find it hard to believe it's purely a philosophical difference. I just had a thought, and I'd like to sanity check it. I don't know Matt or Chris, but I use both Wordpress and Thesis every day, s…

We've never incorporated anyone's code without their full participation and there's no code in Thesis I would want anywhere near core anyway. Thesis is a triumph of marketing, not technical competence. (In fact it relies on people not being able to question its incredulous claims about structure and SEO.) The few cool ideas it has were done in other themes first anyway. On a tech level, WooThemes is doing far more in…

What's your opinion on that fair use argument? That's the only way I could see Chris having a legal leg to stand on. It seems pretty clear that Thesis is a derivative work, especially given that it extends a Wordpress class[1], but if a theme's use of Wordpress does fall under fair use, he wouldn't be violating the license.

It seems that if you buy the FSF's position[2] that linking from a proprietary program violates the license (meaning that linking is not fair use), Wordpress themes are definitely not fair use. But I'm not sure if that's been established in court.

[1]: http://apeatling.wordpress.com/2010/07/14/thesis-and-the-gpl...

[2]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GPL#Point_of_view:_any_linking_...

Re: Would WordPress Sue The Maker Of Thesis WordPress Theme? - Mixergy Interview

#80

Post by pavs »

jscore wrote: post #74

Haven't seen the interview but I'll give my $0.02 here. I use WordPress and just started using Thesis, I think it's a well designed product, albeit a bit simple, but does that it supposed to do really well. It's a nice theme, and very easy to configure either from the WP UI or via the filters/actions. It definitely extends WordPress nicely. It's by far my favorite theme and I plan on using it on my projects (and I mu…

I hope thesis is not the only commercial theme you ever used. Themeforest, one of the premium wordpress theme market, has ~745 high quality themes with some publishers making 6 figures and all of those themes are GPL (to the best of my knowledge), I think this is also true for WooThemes.

The argument that making it GPL will break business is a very weak one. There is nothing, absolutely zero barrier, for someone to copy Thesis and sell it under another name, technically speaking.

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