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It’s time to balance the power between workers and employers

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Re: It’s time to balance the power between workers and employers

#181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Do you mean union leaders or regular members? Because if it's the latter, then you have a counterexample in every 100% unionized company that ever fired anyone This is an interesting point. In countries with well functioning high organization such as Sweden (but unlike France) the key to the situation is the peace agreement (yes it's literally called that) between unions and employers. Basically: unions promise to…

One example of the power of Swedish unions is that Sweden has no minimum wage law. Sure an employer could pay less than the union rate by why wouldn't the worker go to a union shop instead?

> Sure an employer could pay less than the union rate by why wouldn't the worker go to a union shop instead

They couldn't. They would be blockaded. Unions demand that all shops pay union rate, regardless of whether employers of the other shop are happy to not be union. So unions decide rates for all employers and all employees.

Re: It’s time to balance the power between workers and employers

#182
post #6

I don't like or want egalitarianism. No thank you.

I hope you die an extremely slow and painful death when your time comes.

This kind of comment doesn't belong on Hacker News, no matter what you're replying to.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re: It’s time to balance the power between workers and employers

#183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Employees take on a lot of risk. They risk being laid off and they have to put all their eggs in one basket. That's not a lot of risk. If they get laid off, they don't lose an initial investment like the shareholders do. If I get laid off today, I will just go find another job. I don't lose my previous wages. >They also risk damage to their career if their company assigns to them work that doesn't look good on resum…

Most of us live in a world where it's not so easy to just take another job if the current doesn't meet expectations. In addition you have almost no way tell upfront if the new job will be any better.

This is by design.

Re: It’s time to balance the power between workers and employers

#185
Geez, Larry, that's a simplistic view of workers.

What should be the proper expectations for someone entering the workforce?

Is everyone actually equal?

Certainly not.

Some earn qualifications to do various types of "Knowledge Work" and others don't.

Some will take smart risks, work hard, create value, build capital, and be able to employ others. Others take dumb risks, create little value, and go from personal bankruptcy to personal bankruptcy.

And still others will take their qualifications and work for large companies or organizations, and get used to not taking on any risks. They put in their time, create marginal value, and go home.

If they're not earning what they think they deserve, they can take their complaint to the marketplace, line up interviews, put their best face forward, and see if they can convince an employer to see it their way.

I'm disappointed in Larry's pandering to the "I'm a victim" mentality. We need more people with an "I can do anything" mentality.

Re: It’s time to balance the power between workers and employers

#186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't a land value tax punitive to poor people who buy cheap land which then becomes valuable for some reason? Let's say I have low cash flow and bought a reasonably priced house in silicon valley in 1975. Should I basically be forced out of my house in 2010 because a bunch of ultra wealthy companies opened offices a few miles away?

The companies are ultra-wealthy because they are producing high value for society.

High-value non poaching agreements?

Re: It’s time to balance the power between workers and employers

#187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't a land value tax punitive to poor people who buy cheap land which then becomes valuable for some reason? Let's say I have low cash flow and bought a reasonably priced house in silicon valley in 1975. Should I basically be forced out of my house in 2010 because a bunch of ultra wealthy companies opened offices a few miles away?

I think we need to better manage expectations of living space. Renters have no right to live forever in the same apartment, and if they can't pay rent, they have to move. Homeowners pay rent in the form of property taxes to the government, and likewise: if you can't pay your rent, you gotta move. So you won a lottery ticket? You pay your taxes or go to jail. So you got lucky with your home purchase? You pay your taxe…

This seems antithetical to the concept of ownership. If it's my house, why do I have to give it up just because someone with more money wants it? Why should my taxes go up, just because people value my property at an increased rate? Property taxes are supposed to fund the services provided by the local government, not evict poor people for the benefit of the rich.

You suggest that buying a house that people want is like winning a lottery ticket. That ignores the possibility that you bought your house as an investment, because you recognized the potential of a neighborhood, or that you were responsible (in part) for building the value of the neighborhood. Setting those possibilities aside, being rich is a matter of luck too. Your parents were well off, you happened to study the right thing at college, get involved with a startup at the right time, or were even born with the genetics and upbringing to generate a high iq. That's all luck too. Why should the rich person's luck be rewarded by forcing the poor to give up their home and move somewhere worse?

Re: It’s time to balance the power between workers and employers

#188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't a land value tax punitive to poor people who buy cheap land which then becomes valuable for some reason? Let's say I have low cash flow and bought a reasonably priced house in silicon valley in 1975. Should I basically be forced out of my house in 2010 because a bunch of ultra wealthy companies opened offices a few miles away?

So your example of poor people that it affects punitively is a rich person who owns millions in assets? I guess that answers your question that it doesn't affect poor people. It's almost directly analogous to saying that the estate tax affects poor people who win the lottery. Both have received massive benefits unrelated to their efforts and are no longer poor, so talking about them as if they were seems like sophist…

On one side, you would have elderly people who would be forced out of homes they've lived their entire lives in and raised their families in. On the other side, there would your pragmatic but rather cold-hearted analysis. Which side do you think public opinion is going to come down on?

A home is more than a structure that one happens to reside in and its value has other dimensions than what the market might be willing to pay in dollars for it.

Re: It’s time to balance the power between workers and employers

#189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Leaving aside the fact that many engineers are sharedholders, or bonus structures based on company performance, it's more a metric of the ceiling these companies have for increased wages. Obviously there's a risk premium that shareholders should be compensated for, but at the same time, Google has more or less explicitly structured themselves around their reliable profit stream with no obvious place to reinvest the p…

>The economic principle of wages tied to productivity That's not an economic principle. There are no economic theories that make sense to support it. Why would anyone engage in a transaction where they give away all of the money they would gain as a profit? Labor is a market good like any other. Companies don't pay more than the market rate for bolts just because they are doing well. It's silly to think employees are…

>Why would anyone engage in a transaction where they give away all of the money they would gain as a profit?

Companies still fail to profit on some transactions whether intentionally or not. Probably not sustainable except for a non-profit corporation.

Even giving away part of the money does seem to be so much less common that it is understandable for there to be not much remaining general perception that it occurs any more at all.

But generousity can span the complete spectrum from compassion to empowerment to downright charity all the way to absolute philanthropy.

Of course greed has its own spectrum too based around money-motivated indivduals having very little worthwhile to offer while also having very little interest in anything else. This should be able to be completely avoided by truly productive operators, whether capitalists or employees.

But leaving money on the table can be very revealing about the generousity or greed of the other party. There should be enough to go around that you should be be able to avoid cutthroat negotiations especially when relative to the stronger party what you are leaving on the table amounts to table scraps for them.

If you blink and someone rich as hell makes it disappear faster than a common thief could rob you I would consider that a bad sign.

>Companies don't pay more than the market rate for bolts just because they are doing well. It's silly to think employees are any different.

If a hardware company can truly afford to pay more than the market rate for components, and no one else is doing it, many times they should be able to gain a competitive advantage by leveraging the generousity to their suppliers into a much more productive and/or higher quality supply chain. For a very small premium on top of your minimum component cost you can virtually double the resources your suplier has to work with on your behalf, all they need to do is leverage it back in your favor and everybody wins.

It is silly to think employees are any different.

Re: It’s time to balance the power between workers and employers

#190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I believe OP repeated a good sounding slogan ("workers should be able to buy the things they produce!") they had heard, without having spent any thought to what it would mean in reality. My example is meant to show that principle is absurd, not that OP actually believes in that consequence. I admit the point could have been delivered friendlier. As for charitability, we are all prone to agree to what fits with what w…

Ok, so a worker makes a part of a plane - not the whole plane. Should the group of workers be able to buy the whole plane? I don't see the substantial and valid point in your rebuttal. Care to elucidate in the spirit of the original point?

My core substantial point is that there should be no connection between the unit price of what a worker produces and their wage.

To take an example at the other end, should someone working in the paper clip industry be happy as long as they can afford to buy one paper clip?

I can understand an emotional reaction to people working on goods just outside the reach of their spending power. But if you think about it, those two numbers have nothing to do with each other.

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