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It’s time to balance the power between workers and employers

washingtonpost.com

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Re: It’s time to balance the power between workers and employers

#61

Post by pfisch »

jellicle wrote: post #56
pfisch wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Allow all kinds of debt to be discharged via bankrupcy Credit would dry up overnight and interest rates would go through the roof on many loans. Also why would anyone ever offer a student loan under these conditions? >'Single Payer' healthcare (tax everyone for basic healthcare) We are about to have net neutrality repealed over the objection of everyone except ISPs basically. Medicare isn't even allowed to negotiat…

> Credit would dry up overnight and interest rates would go through the roof on many loans. That's a silly thing to say. Will the Moon fall down too? > Also why would anyone ever offer a student loan under these conditions? Probably profit. Don't you think? Isn't that usually why loans are made? You understand that this is a recent change to the law (1998) and prior to that, student loans still existed and worked fin…

Why would you extend a massive loan to someone who is broke, has no credit, and can immediately discharge the debt. They could and many of them would immediately discharge the entire balance of the loan upon graduation by declaring bankruptcy.

They don't offer standard 40k+ loans to people with no credit at any rate.

Also even if they did offer that the interest rate would be insane because you are dealing with so many defaults. That would not really make the situation better.

Re: It’s time to balance the power between workers and employers

#62

Post by pfisch »

mjevans wrote: post #53
pfisch wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Allow all kinds of debt to be discharged via bankrupcy Credit would dry up overnight and interest rates would go through the roof on many loans. Also why would anyone ever offer a student loan under these conditions? >'Single Payer' healthcare (tax everyone for basic healthcare) We are about to have net neutrality repealed over the objection of everyone except ISPs basically. Medicare isn't even allowed to negotiat…

Student loans wouldn't be required for an education since the government would be competing with private entities, at least for fields of training that the government felt were useful for society. For medical care, no, I don't mean the current broken compromise and comparing the regulatory environment in other nations to our own is insanity. I meant what I said in the /government/ providing a market baseline. If we h…

> I meant what I said in the /government/ providing a market baseline.

This is not a single payer system. I don't understand what you are saying.

Re: It’s time to balance the power between workers and employers

#63

Post by frgtpsswrdlame »

blacksqr wrote: post #22

If only we could figure out and implement some kind of system where every person had one equal say in choosing leaders, regardless of wealth or social position. Then those who were disadvantaged could outvote the privileged few and elect leaders who would set policies to make things more fair.

The problem is that there's no one to choose. First past the post prevents voting for your favorite and party control prevents populist candidates. Trump broke past but Bernie didn't despite his popularity. Gerrymandering and voter restrictions disenfranchise and secret $ flows from corporations to astroturf campaigns. We exist in a mirage of democratic control, vote reform is necessary.

Re: It’s time to balance the power between workers and employers

#64

Post by frgtpsswrdlame »

ThrustVectoring wrote: post #19
ianai wrote: post #13

Countries are best off that empower their people: the individual citizens.

I really don't like the framing of that. Good countries get the hell out of the way while people use their inherent power of self-determination. If someone powerful spends their time "empowering" you, it means you had none in the first place.

>If someone powerful spends their time "empowering" you, it means you had none in the first place.

Is that not reasonable? The 'inherent power of self-determination' is pretty weak all things considered. Governments exist to help 'empower' in the myriad of ways that can undermine self-determination.

Re: It’s time to balance the power between workers and employers

#65

Post by joe_the_user »

danblick wrote: post #9

Software developers are already highly paid with lots of perks. Do they need unions?

A minority of developers get the rockstar wages of Silicon Valley, the majority are paid typical middle class saleries from 25 to 35, a substantial number have been tossed away by 50.

Moreover, a substantial number work in such high stress situations that they have to get out after a bit and suffer serious burn-out as a result.

A union, professional association or better labor standards might be able to address all this.

Re: It’s time to balance the power between workers and employers

#66

Post by ekianjo »

Animats wrote: post #49

Union, Yes. The US has weak unions because labor law enforcement is so weak. No administration has done much about that in decades. 11% of US employees belong to a union. 32% in Canada. Read "Confessions of a Union Buster" for background. In theory, whether to organize a union in the US is entirely up to the workers. The employer has no say in the matter. Few people even know that. Employers try hard to maintain that…

Let's not forget that unions can also become detrimental to employees' working environment. In France unions are very powerful and unionists when going on strike, prevent non-unionists from working, and retaliate against folks who do not agree with their agenda - this goes against individual employee freedom and becomes another form of coercion. And unionists, no matter how piss poor a job they do, can never be fired (in theory they can, but in practice it never happens).

Re: It’s time to balance the power between workers and employers

#67

Post by ekianjo »

sillysaurus3 wrote: post #14
danblick wrote: post #9

Software developers are already highly paid with lots of perks. Do they need unions?

I think the argument goes: We make table scraps compared to the amount that a corporation rakes in. Yet we're the sole reason they're able to rake in that amount of money. Not that I agree with it, but that's an argument.

> Yet we're the sole reason they're able to rake in that amount of money.

If you really believe in what you are saying, then go ahead and build your own company and grab the business for yourself.

Re: It’s time to balance the power between workers and employers

#68

Post by SubiculumCode »

hueving wrote: post #44
jldugger wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We have companies that are losing money paying their engineers six-digit salaries. I assume that's a tactical decision on their part to bootstrap a new company. A brief analysis I did a few months ago suggests that six digit salaries aren't bankrupting established companies. The largest SV employers could arguably double or triple engineer salaries without dipping into negative salary territory: Facebook Employees:…

Where are people getting the notion that engineers should be paid whatever the current profit per engineer is? Engineers are not shareholders. You can't have it both ways where employees get to take all of the upside of a business without all of the risks of being an investor. When IBM has a bad year, would you be okay with clawing back all of the salary paid out that year?

Most investors have the privilege to take risks because they have pre-existing wealth; but yeah their investments carry risk. Workers also carry risk; they invest resources to establish and maintain their employment with a company.

Re: It’s time to balance the power between workers and employers

#69

Post by SmirkingRevenge »

ianai wrote: post #46
BurningFrog wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I believe OP repeated a good sounding slogan ("workers should be able to buy the things they produce!") they had heard, without having spent any thought to what it would mean in reality. My example is meant to show that principle is absurd, not that OP actually believes in that consequence. I admit the point could have been delivered friendlier. As for charitability, we are all prone to agree to what fits with what w…

That's not how I perceived your comment. You took the statement and came up with another statement and claimed it was a logical extension of the first. But it was not faithful to the original statement. Nor was that my only point. You essentially found a logical exploit and dumped the rest of my meaning. That's violent.

Well, there are "reductio ad absurdum" arguments - which attempt to show that an argument is bad because it leads to absurd conclusions. And as its fancy latin name suggests, its as old as the ages, and is often a reasonable form of argument.

Re: It’s time to balance the power between workers and employers

#70

Post by savanaly »

ianai wrote: post #17
sillysaurus3 wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the argument goes: We make table scraps compared to the amount that a corporation rakes in. Yet we're the sole reason they're able to rake in that amount of money. Not that I agree with it, but that's an argument.

I think we're fully in the "see what little you can pay someone to get them to do a job" optimization mode. The marginal cost=marginal benefit argument doesn't seem to apply anywhere. On the contrary, if you're actively making something (burgers, computers) then you're usually not paid enough to actually consume those things on a regular schedule. I think that's a symptom of an emergent caste system.

What reason do we have to think that for e.g. Google, marginal cost of hiring another engineer is not equal to the marginal benefit? Be careful not to confuse marginal benefit with average benefit, which as for almost all inputs in the economy, is always higher than marginal benefit.
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