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China sees new world order with oil benchmark backed by gold

asia.nikkei.com

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Re: China sees new world order with oil benchmark backed by gold

#51

Post by ViktorV »

ilaksh wrote: post #31
forapurpose wrote: post #13

I read someplace that political power is constant. If you withdraw, then the power doesn't go away - it remains for others to seize. Perhaps it's the law of conservation of political power. For example, it happened in Iraq when the U.S. eliminated the people holding power, Hussein and the Baathists, and didn't have realistic plans for anyone to seize it. Iran, Shiite religious authorities, and Sunni insurgents all ju…

The US is not withdrawing. The US did have a plan for Iraq and executed it. The plan was to take out the regime and establish a military presence and prevent a strong regime from taking the old one's place. A mess accomplishes that. The US is still surrounding Iran with operations in Afghanistan and Iraq. The US still operates (indirectly?) in Syria against Russia. When Gaddafi tried to circumvent the petrodollar his…

I'm just curious: could you give me an example where a 'crazy conspiracy theorists' explain and predict the war against Afghanistan, Iraq etc..? I mean articles which predate the situations.

Re: China sees new world order with oil benchmark backed by gold

#52

Post by seanmcdirmid »

barry-cotter wrote: post #37
seanmcdirmid wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

China and Russia are also big producers of gold. But if gold truly comes back, it will give a huge boost to Africa, which has most of the reserves.

That's true only of the well governed African states with inclusive rather than extractive institutions. Gabon's oil hasn't done much to boost the standard of living of anyone outside the Presidential circle though GDP has gone up a lot.

Yes. The money is likely not to be spent well.

Re: China sees new world order with oil benchmark backed by gold

#53

Post by nl »

tomcam wrote: post #45
nl wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Taxes come in many forms. And paying taxes is hardly the only distinguishing feature of an empire. For example, many colonies of the British Empire remained part of the Emprie long after they stopped paying taxes (eg, Canada, Australia). In some case I don't believe they ever paid taxes at all. Yet they immediately sent troops in war, and provided favorable trading conditions. Even outside that, paying for troops to…

Taxes do not come in many forms. They are involuntary payments made with jail as the punishment for noncompliance.

So.. an empire has to threaten to put a whole country in jail before it can be an empire? Does it dig up the land and physically put it in prison? Only the leaders? Every single person?

That meets no definition of empire I've ever heard of, and I'm not sure what you are even arguing anymore. Are you just trying to find something to be right about?

Come on!

Look outside your idealogical bubble for a couple of minutes, and think about what your point is.

If your point is that the US isn't an empire, then sure - I think everyone will agree it was never the same as the Roman empire or the British Empire.

But the post cold-war US was something, which involved it obtaining a lot of power in many forms. Some of this power was financial and was based on the US dollar being the reserve currency, and even the US's enemies had little choice but to concede to that power.

When the OP said that this is the end of the US's empire, that is what they meant. Think about that - if you disagree, then fine. There are reasons to think they could be wrong (this has been tried before and didn't work then).

But claiming the US is not an empire because it didn't collect taxes (!) as though that somehow invalidates the argument is just wrong.

Re: China sees new world order with oil benchmark backed by gold

#54

Post by nl »

tomcam wrote: post #18
igravious wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As soon as I posted the above comment I started getting down votes so let me go into detail to hopefully stave off any negativity in what I think is a very important topic. Sorry, I know its not the done thing to talk about down-voting here :) (1) Note that this article is _explicitly_ about changing the dollar-backed oil trading arrangements we have had up until now and even has the phrase “new world order” in the t…

What kind of imperialists do what we did for Japan, Europe, Vietnam etc. without, oh, I don't know, getting territory or reimbursements out of the deal? Please, igravious, feel free to conquer me and play those same devious imperial tricks on me!

What kind of imperialists do what we did for Japan, Europe, Vietnam etc. without, oh, I don't know, getting territory or reimbursements out of the deal?

"According to an annual report titled Allied Contributions to the Common Defense published by the U.S. Department of Defense in 2004, Japan provided direct support of $3.2 billion (about ¥366 billion) and indirect support worth $1.18 billion, offsetting as much as 74.5 percent of the total cost.... [in 2017] It said Japan will pay ¥192 billion in the current fiscal year in direct support. U.S."

https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2017/01/31/national/much-j...

Re: China sees new world order with oil benchmark backed by gold

#55

Post by nl »

ddorian43 wrote: post #17
igravious wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is all true. I don't disagree with you. But. (There's always a but.) I'm not disputing that the US isn't a great economic powerhouse. What I'm getting at is, at what cost . If the middle-class gets gutted and relative and absolute poverty keeps increasing then we're not really creating a just society, are we? In one of the wealthiest, if not the wealthiest nation ever if we still haven't figured out how to prote…

China also knows that you get bombed/hacked/etc to oblivion for trying it.

Iran hasn't been bombed or hacked to oblivion for trying it[1]. Russia hasn't been bombed or hacked for trying to kill it[2]

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iranian_oil_bourse

[2] http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/25/business/worldbusiness/25i...

Re: China sees new world order with oil benchmark backed by gold

#56

Post by nl »

Consultant32452 wrote: post #49
tomcam wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A voluntary exchange of goods or services for money is not a tax or tribute.

When we invade countries and depose leaders who threaten to trade oil on something other than the dollar, it's not exactly voluntary.

While I disagree with the comment you are replying to, your comment isn't correct either.

There is a non-trivial amount of oil traded in the euro, and also see [1], [2]

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iranian_oil_bourse

[2] http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/25/business/worldbusiness/25i...

Re: China sees new world order with oil benchmark backed by gold

#57

Post by forapurpose »

ilaksh wrote: post #31
forapurpose wrote: post #13

I read someplace that political power is constant. If you withdraw, then the power doesn't go away - it remains for others to seize. Perhaps it's the law of conservation of political power. For example, it happened in Iraq when the U.S. eliminated the people holding power, Hussein and the Baathists, and didn't have realistic plans for anyone to seize it. Iran, Shiite religious authorities, and Sunni insurgents all ju…

The US is not withdrawing. The US did have a plan for Iraq and executed it. The plan was to take out the regime and establish a military presence and prevent a strong regime from taking the old one's place. A mess accomplishes that. The US is still surrounding Iran with operations in Afghanistan and Iraq. The US still operates (indirectly?) in Syria against Russia. When Gaddafi tried to circumvent the petrodollar his…

I agree with many of those points, but they describe the U.S.'s actions before Trump took office. Since then the U.S.'s behavior has been exceptionally isolationist; for example, the U.S. withdrew from the Paris climate agreement, is trying to withdraw or renegotiate multiple trade agreements, wavered on NATO commitments, has openly stated they embracing 'America First' policy, etc. etc. etc.

Re: China sees new world order with oil benchmark backed by gold

#58

Post by forapurpose »

ViktorV wrote: post #51
ilaksh wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The US is not withdrawing. The US did have a plan for Iraq and executed it. The plan was to take out the regime and establish a military presence and prevent a strong regime from taking the old one's place. A mess accomplishes that. The US is still surrounding Iran with operations in Afghanistan and Iraq. The US still operates (indirectly?) in Syria against Russia. When Gaddafi tried to circumvent the petrodollar his…

I'm just curious: could you give me an example where a 'crazy conspiracy theorists' explain and predict the war against Afghanistan, Iraq etc..? I mean articles which predate the situations.

I believe it was Cheney and possibly Rumsfeld whose organization, in the late 1990s, published a paper advocating invasion of Iraq.

Re: China sees new world order with oil benchmark backed by gold

#59

Post by kartickv »

nradov wrote: post #47
kartickv wrote: post #42

I don't understand why US-embargoed countries can't simply get paid in gold. Transporting a billion dollars worth of gold costs nothing compared to transporting a billion dollars worth of oil. And no third country can intervene in transaction between two governments, which is exactly what the two governments should want.

The embargoed countries are mostly poor and don't have much gold reserves. And the US might be able to seize or destroy gold shipments in transit. Moving physical gold is far more risky than a wire transfer.

But China is rich and has tons of gold reserves to pay Iran with.

Moving gold is risky for individuals, but manageable for governments, certainly big powerful ones like China or India. The question is not whether it's more risky than a wire transfer but whether, when a wire transfer isn't possible, gold is workable.

I don't think the US would try to sieze shipments being made by another country, say by shooting down a Chinese or Indian air force plane. That will have major consequences, and be treated an act of war.

Re: China sees new world order with oil benchmark backed by gold

#60

Post by ForFreedom »

drawkbox wrote: post #29
ForFreedom wrote: post #19

Five banks of the BRICS Interbank Cooperation Mechanism (ICM) have agreed to establish local currency credit lines and develop cooperation on credit ratings in the run-up to the forthcoming BRICS summit in China. So the entire East part of the world will trade with China

They are building the New Silk Road [1]. This is part of the reason South China Sea is so hot, 2/3rd of world trade goes through there. Also the reason we haphazardly threw together the TPP which was not as generous to trading partners as China's deal which includes tons of investment to partner countries. We in the US have to get better at remembering how we helped re-build countries after WWII, we need to understan…

>We in the US have to get better at remembering how we helped re-build countries after WWII

In the interest of the US

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