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To Understand Rising Inequality, Consider Janitors

nytimes.com

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Re: To Understand Rising Inequality, Consider Janitors

#51

Post by FLUX-YOU »

flattone wrote: post #25
FLUX-YOU wrote: post #3

>Focus on core competence and outsource the rest. The approach has made companies more nimble and more productive, and delivered huge profits for shareholders. It has also fueled inequality and helps explain why many working-class Americans are struggling even in an ostensibly healthy economy. That is the outsourced companies causing inequality. They are the ones paying people terribly, not the company contracting wi…

1) Company contracting the outsourcing company can dictate what is paid to the contractors. 2) Company contracting the outsourcing company does not usually pay outsourcing company unmeasured rates where OSC then keeps large margin from contractors.

>Company contracting the outsourcing company can dictate what is paid to the contractors.

That should still have a floor through labor laws. If it doesn't, that too needs to change.

>Company contracting the outsourcing company does not usually pay outsourcing company unmeasured rates where OSC then keeps large margin from contractors.

Higher minimum takes from that margin. OSC can then choose to charge the client more or pay themselves less.

Re: To Understand Rising Inequality, Consider Janitors

#52

Post by asmithmd1 »

jfaucett wrote: post #21

This story reminded me of something I've often wanted to know when people start talking about economic inequality metrics, namely, how many of those in poverty when entering the workforce will remain in poverty their whole life? To me the longitudinal information here is the most significant metric i.e. what does wealth movement look like for individuals over their lifetime. Virtually everyone in their teens and earl…

A few weeks ago the NYTimes had a graph showing the same trend applying to all workers that this current story illustrates with two examples:

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2017/08/07/opinion/leonh...

TL;DR In 1980 low income workers saw their incomes rise faster than high income workers, now the vast majority of income gains go to extremely high paid workers.

Re: To Understand Rising Inequality, Consider Janitors

#53

Post by newforice »

princekolt wrote: post #31
newforice wrote: post #11

"If you’re educated, you’re in command." I'm not college educated, I've made a comfortable living as a coder. It took over ten years of self-teaching in my 20's while working a FT job but I knew this is what I wanted to do. So I agree with the statement but there's more than one way to become educated. Academia is just one way and possibly not the best way.

But the simple knowledge of this fact is so scarce that it makes almost no difference. And since most schools don't care about coding (or, where I'm from for example, about anything not related to get the most students to pass the equivalent of SATs), this is not going to change soon. I was so surprised when my father told me that back in the 80s, in a small city in the interior of Brazil, in a public school, he was…

"Programming should have the same importance status as maths in school, if not more."

It amazes me that it isn't the case, I assumed most High Schools if not grade schools were teaching some programming by now.

Re: To Understand Rising Inequality, Consider Janitors

#54

Post by fatjokes »

hypersoar wrote: post #47
fatjokes wrote: post #17

Devil's advocate: there is an upside here. Come economic downturns, companies can mitigate layoffs by choosing not to renew contracts. It means that those who planned for stability (full time employees) are more likely to get it, e.g., start a family, take out a mortgage, etc. Those expecting turbulence can avoid long-term commitments.

So the solution to lack of stability is to not allow some people to ever have it?

I don't see how having a contract job means never being able to move into a stable position.

Re: To Understand Rising Inequality, Consider Janitors

#55

Post by andrewksl »

FLUX-YOU wrote: post #12
eof wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Eh.. that's like saying "Can't blame me for cruelty to animals, the people I buy the meat from treat the animals cruelly; not me."

You can hold multiple people accountable, but I'm pretty sure Google should be less accountable than the outsourcing companies. If you want to hold major companies accountable for the outsourcing companies they hire, fine, make a regulatory push for that, but you have to fix the outsourcing companies first before you can seriously argue for that or you're just making major companies pay for the problems of outsourcin…

I think they're both equally culpable; the customer for making pricing a race to the bottom and the service provider for choosing to play said game.

The customer could choose to consider the treatment of the workers a priority in selecting service providers, and the service provider could choose to refuse to exploit their workers just to secure deals, but neither of them have any real incentive to do so. It's not illegal to shop primarily by price. It's not illegal to hire PT workers even when FT would be viable.

I do agree, though, that the problem is a lack of regulation; unfettered capitalism really does have a evil end game.

Re: To Understand Rising Inequality, Consider Janitors

#56

Post by mynameishere »

fatjokes wrote: post #17

Devil's advocate: there is an upside here. Come economic downturns, companies can mitigate layoffs by choosing not to renew contracts. It means that those who planned for stability (full time employees) are more likely to get it, e.g., start a family, take out a mortgage, etc. Those expecting turbulence can avoid long-term commitments.

"Devil's advocate" means taking an intentionally contrary view--not literally saying things that the devil himself would say.

Re: To Understand Rising Inequality, Consider Janitors

#57

Post by mdorazio »

fatjokes wrote: post #17

Devil's advocate: there is an upside here. Come economic downturns, companies can mitigate layoffs by choosing not to renew contracts. It means that those who planned for stability (full time employees) are more likely to get it, e.g., start a family, take out a mortgage, etc. Those expecting turbulence can avoid long-term commitments.

I'm failing to see how that's an upside at the wider economic level. If companies choose not to renew contracts, people are still getting laid off; they're just getting laid off from the contracted company instead of the company that terminated the contract. All you've done is shift layoffs onto people who, arguably, are the least able to deal with losing a job.

Re: To Understand Rising Inequality, Consider Janitors

#58

Post by beastcoast »

phreeza wrote: post #2

The article fails to mention Amazon, which does still have plenty of non-outsourced blue collar jobs. I doubt there is a lot of the kind of upward mobility at amazon for them that there was for the Kodak janitor in the 80s, though.

Anecdotally I know, I got my foot in the door at Amazon by temping and later being hired. Amazon is a great place to start as a temp IMO because they are always looking for talent and you will often be embedded directly with teams and be treated as a regular employee. I also know several former FC employees that moved HQ.

Similarly, Apple Store employees can work their way up to HQ.

Re: To Understand Rising Inequality, Consider Janitors

#59

Post by newforice »

sigmar wrote: post #24
newforice wrote: post #11

"If you’re educated, you’re in command." I'm not college educated, I've made a comfortable living as a coder. It took over ten years of self-teaching in my 20's while working a FT job but I knew this is what I wanted to do. So I agree with the statement but there's more than one way to become educated. Academia is just one way and possibly not the best way.

Why do you assume that quote refers to formal education (instead of any form of education that leads to one becoming a software engineer)?

It seems like a safe assumption for today but you're right, it's an assumption.

Re: To Understand Rising Inequality, Consider Janitors

#60

Post by mdorazio »

phreeza wrote: post #2

The article fails to mention Amazon, which does still have plenty of non-outsourced blue collar jobs. I doubt there is a lot of the kind of upward mobility at amazon for them that there was for the Kodak janitor in the 80s, though.

Keep in mind, though, that Amazon is doing everything it can to automate most of those blue collar jobs (warehouse robots, delivery drones, etc.). That workforce has a very limited shelf life.
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