To Understand Rising Inequality, Consider Janitors • Hacker News Board

Re: To Understand Rising Inequality, Consider Janitors

#41

Post by Spooky23 » Sun, Sep 03, 2017, 3:03 PM UTC

Government was similar to this. Many of my mid to high level colleagues in IT about 5-10 years ago came up through the ranks from clerical jobs. My longtime director/mentor started as a tabulating machine operator in the 70s.

All of those types of people are pretty much gone into retirement now. We don't have that type of advancement because most of those entry tasks in both IT and business are farmed out to a permanent underclass -- a contract bodyshops with mostly South Asians on work visas.

Re: To Understand Rising Inequality, Consider Janitors

#42

Post by jackschultz » Sun, Sep 03, 2017, 3:03 PM UTC

peatmoss wrote: post #28

One of my pet peeves is when articles such as this use averages exclusively to talk about incomes. Averages are sensitive to outliers, and thus may obscure what's the typical condition. If you're going to pick one measure to talk about incomes, median may give a better picture of what's typical.

That bothers me on basically every stat on a news article. They just come up with a number and expect people to believe it. But they don't talk about how it was calculated so people can't confirm it themselves, and very often, if multiple "experts" are the ones calculating the stats, they just pick the biggest outlier to strum up more controversy.

Re: To Understand Rising Inequality, Consider Janitors

#43

Post by fatjokes » Sun, Sep 03, 2017, 3:03 PM UTC

peatmoss wrote: post #28

One of my pet peeves is when articles such as this use averages exclusively to talk about incomes. Averages are sensitive to outliers, and thus may obscure what's the typical condition. If you're going to pick one measure to talk about incomes, median may give a better picture of what's typical.

I think articles like this usually do mention the stats a bit, but usually start out with an extreme story to hook the reader. It's a common storytelling technique and something I see often in journalism and pop-sci books.

Re: To Understand Rising Inequality, Consider Janitors

#44

Post by khitchdee » Sun, Sep 03, 2017, 3:03 PM UTC

anovikov wrote: post #4

FLUX-YOU wrote: post #3

>Focus on core competence and outsource the rest. The approach has made companies more nimble and more productive, and delivered huge profits for shareholders. It has also fueled inequality and helps explain why many working-class Americans are struggling even in an ostensibly healthy economy. That is the outsourced companies causing inequality. They are the ones paying people terribly, not the company contracting wi…

I think in both cases, it's just the market. There is a demand for engineers which is more than for janitors, and with more limited supply. Everything else is just moving money from one pocket into another, it doesn't have economic significance.

Agree. In a capitalist society, this is par for the course. If you try to build systems to remove this inequality, you have to move towards communism since you will then need far more complex control mechanisms.

Re: To Understand Rising Inequality, Consider Janitors

#45

Post by mdorazio » Sun, Sep 03, 2017, 3:04 PM UTC

jfaucett wrote: post #21

This story reminded me of something I've often wanted to know when people start talking about economic inequality metrics, namely, how many of those in poverty when entering the workforce will remain in poverty their whole life? To me the longitudinal information here is the most significant metric i.e. what does wealth movement look like for individuals over their lifetime. Virtually everyone in their teens and earl…

You're looking for research on what's called "socioeconomic mobility". The Atlantic has summed up some of this research [1]. Basically it's become harder for American workers to work their way up the income ladder over time.

[1] https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2016/07/social-...

Re: To Understand Rising Inequality, Consider Janitors

#46

Post by peatmoss » Sun, Sep 03, 2017, 3:05 PM UTC

jfaucett wrote: post #21

This story reminded me of something I've often wanted to know when people start talking about economic inequality metrics, namely, how many of those in poverty when entering the workforce will remain in poverty their whole life? To me the longitudinal information here is the most significant metric i.e. what does wealth movement look like for individuals over their lifetime. Virtually everyone in their teens and earl…

I've heard from smarter people than me that your parents' level of economic attainment is the best predictor of your economic attainment. Everyone may be broke in their twenties, but some of those 20 somethings presumably got a leg up from being in a good (pre, elementary, secondary, post-secondary) school and can ask mom and pop for help on the down payment for a home, etc.

Suspect that's still the case, though the other trend of increasing inequality means that more and more at the bottom are slipping out of middle class, while a very select few at the top are headed toward cryoretirement in their ice palaces overlooking a scenic valley on some private jovian moon.

Re: To Understand Rising Inequality, Consider Janitors

#47

Post by hypersoar » Sun, Sep 03, 2017, 3:05 PM UTC

fatjokes wrote: post #17

Devil's advocate: there is an upside here. Come economic downturns, companies can mitigate layoffs by choosing not to renew contracts. It means that those who planned for stability (full time employees) are more likely to get it, e.g., start a family, take out a mortgage, etc. Those expecting turbulence can avoid long-term commitments.

So the solution to lack of stability is to not allow some people to ever have it?

Re: To Understand Rising Inequality, Consider Janitors

#48

Post by sandworm101 » Sun, Sep 03, 2017, 3:05 PM UTC

It isnt just the cleaning staff. IT, especially startups, have a culture of pigeon-holing people even when they are on staff. It's a symptom over-specialization imho. People are hired according to extensive and exacting criteria. Once hired, managers find it difficult to think of the person as anything else.

Honestly, that is a large part of why i broke free and enlisted. I'm now in an organization that sees increasing skills and promotion as essential. If i fail at my job (pilot) i wont be fired but given a different role. Call it a throwback to the 60s if you want, but im less stressed now than i ever was as a consultant. (And forget everything you think you know about the military. The rcaf isnt anything like american movies.)

Re: To Understand Rising Inequality, Consider Janitors

#49

Post by [deleted] » Sun, Sep 03, 2017, 3:05 PM UTC

FLUX-YOU wrote: post #18

untog wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[deleted]

>Citing "the market" is yet another way of avoiding responsibility. I didn't cite "the market" at all because I actually suggested regulation which is contrary to "the market" argument often thrown around. But socially, no, I would blame the outsourcing companies way before I would blame major companies for hiring those outsourcing companies. This is all very convenient because janitors and security guards have to be…

[deleted]

Re: To Understand Rising Inequality, Consider Janitors

#50

Post by chronid » Sun, Sep 03, 2017, 3:07 PM UTC

FLUX-YOU wrote: post #12

eof wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Eh.. that's like saying "Can't blame me for cruelty to animals, the people I buy the meat from treat the animals cruelly; not me."

You can hold multiple people accountable, but I'm pretty sure Google should be less accountable than the outsourcing companies. If you want to hold major companies accountable for the outsourcing companies they hire, fine, make a regulatory push for that, but you have to fix the outsourcing companies first before you can seriously argue for that or you're just making major companies pay for the problems of outsourcin…

Well, the major companies are the one pushing to pay less and less the outsourcing companies, aren't they?

I really want to know what BigCorp will chose the first between a company paying janitors above minimum wage and a company offering them to cut their cost on janitors by 30% (but janitors gets only enough to scrape by). My experience is that they will jump on the cheaper offer (so someone can get a bonus), and the janitors can go fuck themselves - and so can the quality of their work. It happens all the time, and not only with janitors.

Arguing that the fault rests (only) with the outsourcing companies is the same thing as arguing the fault of people getting low salaries rests (only) on those people. It may be technically true, but it seems pretty naive to me.