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US government halts study on health effects of coal mining

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Re: US government halts study on health effects of coal mining

#81
post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And as such these tiny tiny cuts are a good idea? It's very dangerous to call defunding of sciences and regulatory oversight to be "wasteful" spending. They are both inexpensive and tend to be valable for decades to come. Maybe Trump, his team, and the Republican majority in every branch of government could do something positive about entitlement spending? It'd be great to get back to a US where we actually spend non…

There's nothing sacred about science that makes it untouchable or puts it above all other spending. It's talk like that which leads to bloated budgets that never get resolved because everything falls in that category to someone.

> There's nothing sacred about science that makes it untouchable or puts it above all other spending.

Well, sure there is: return on investment. If there is one thing history shows us, it is that scientifically minded investment is almost never wasted. Our lives are better in many, many ways because purely scientific (or even engineering) endeavors we're funded by the public.

Unlike, say, funding Nazi political campaigns under the guise of "freedom of speech".

When you're optimizing a program, you identify the biggest performance problems, address their root cause, fix those, then re-evaluate. You don't start cherry picking tiny constant gains out of the system and expect to succeed. All that does is waste time and misdirect effort.

Re: US government halts study on health effects of coal mining

#82
post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's nothing sacred about science that makes it untouchable or puts it above all other spending. It's talk like that which leads to bloated budgets that never get resolved because everything falls in that category to someone.

> There's nothing sacred about science that makes it untouchable or puts it above all other spending. Well, sure there is: return on investment. If there is one thing history shows us, it is that scientifically minded investment is almost never wasted. Our lives are better in many, many ways because purely scientific (or even engineering) endeavors we're funded by the public. Unlike, say, funding Nazi political campa…

> Well, sure there is: return on investment. If there is one thing history shows us, it is that scientifically minded investment is almost never wasted.

The weasel words in that are "almost never".

If something has merit then let it stand on its merit.

> Our lives are better in many, many ways because purely scientific (or even engineering) endeavors we're funded by the public.

Sure and I'm not saying to block them all. I'm saying it's fine to take a look at them individually, there are no sacred cows, and labeling something "____ Science" doesn't make it beyond reproach.

> Unlike, say, funding Nazi political campaigns under the guise of "freedom of speech".

That was quick. Usually it takes more than one reply before the Nazi references come out.

> When you're optimizing a program, you identify the biggest performance problems, address their root cause, fix those, then re-evaluate. You don't start cherry picking tiny constant gains out of the system and expect to succeed. All that does is waste time and misdirect effort.

Everything about how the Federal government operates is a form of cherry picking. It's a side effect of having limited time and funds. The executive branch decides what they're going to follow up on.

If you're upset that your particular cherries aren't the ones being picked, and it really seems like that's the root of your dissent, then so be it. That's hardly scientific though. That's just being a sore loser.

Re: US government halts study on health effects of coal mining

#83
post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There's nothing sacred about science that makes it untouchable or puts it above all other spending. Well, sure there is: return on investment. If there is one thing history shows us, it is that scientifically minded investment is almost never wasted. Our lives are better in many, many ways because purely scientific (or even engineering) endeavors we're funded by the public. Unlike, say, funding Nazi political campa…

> Well, sure there is: return on investment. If there is one thing history shows us, it is that scientifically minded investment is almost never wasted. The weasel words in that are "almost never". If something has merit then let it stand on its merit. > Our lives are better in many, many ways because purely scientific (or even engineering) endeavors we're funded by the public. Sure and I'm not saying to block them a…

> Sure and I'm not saying to block them all. I'm saying it's fine to take a look at them individually, there are no sacred cows, and labeling something "____ Science" doesn't make it beyond reproach.

So you request a specific approach with reason and care offered, but base this on the generalism, "Science is not sacred?" Seems contratradictory but okay...

Being specific, why wouldn't we carefully measure the impact of private industry on public health? Private industry isn't on the hook for health emergencies, the public is. So we shut this down because... "waste?"

Given the the ongoing phenomenon of our executive parroting nonsense, pseudoscientific marketing speak like "clean coal" it certainly appears to be the executive helping the coal industry with it's long-standing and well-documented agenda of stifling public research and denying transparency.

> If you're upset that your particular cherries aren't the ones being picked, and it really seems like that's the root of your dissent, then so be it. That's hardly scientific though. That's just being a sore loser.

I don't get why cancelling an ongoing public health research project is "my cherries". If the coal industry and their legacy, heavily subsidized, environmentaly damaging, largely export-driven, minimally job creating industry is causing public health crisis, I do not want to further reward them.

It's their cherries you're proposing to pick, all the while suggesting that scientifically driving inquiry into public health is a luxury we may not be able to afford.

To which I ask: why? What's in it for anyone? Why are you proposing that defunding public health and environmental research is fair but coal industry subsidies are conveniently absent from your austerity program. Why?

Why is this your cherries and why should the public not only be on the hook for long term health and cleanup issues, but be forbidden from even asking questions about said potentialities? Can't we at least study and plan for potential expenses?

Re: US government halts study on health effects of coal mining

#84
post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There's nothing sacred about science that makes it untouchable or puts it above all other spending. Well, sure there is: return on investment. If there is one thing history shows us, it is that scientifically minded investment is almost never wasted. Our lives are better in many, many ways because purely scientific (or even engineering) endeavors we're funded by the public. Unlike, say, funding Nazi political campa…

> Well, sure there is: return on investment. If there is one thing history shows us, it is that scientifically minded investment is almost never wasted. The weasel words in that are "almost never". If something has merit then let it stand on its merit. > Our lives are better in many, many ways because purely scientific (or even engineering) endeavors we're funded by the public. Sure and I'm not saying to block them a…

I was unaware that political appointees were good at judging scientific merit. That's why previous administrations (Republican and Democratic) have generally not messed with research grants.

Re: US government halts study on health effects of coal mining

#85
post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There's nothing sacred about science that makes it untouchable or puts it above all other spending. Well, sure there is: return on investment. If there is one thing history shows us, it is that scientifically minded investment is almost never wasted. Our lives are better in many, many ways because purely scientific (or even engineering) endeavors we're funded by the public. Unlike, say, funding Nazi political campa…

> Well, sure there is: return on investment. If there is one thing history shows us, it is that scientifically minded investment is almost never wasted. The weasel words in that are "almost never". If something has merit then let it stand on its merit. > Our lives are better in many, many ways because purely scientific (or even engineering) endeavors we're funded by the public. Sure and I'm not saying to block them a…

> That was quick. Usually it takes more than one reply before the Nazi references come out.

I totally missed this in my reply, but in 2017 if folks are frequently calling you a Nazi it probably isn't a Seinfeld joke.

Re: US government halts study on health effects of coal mining

#87
post #8

I assumed it was widely known that coal mining was hazardous to ones health. My grandfather died from black lung before I was born.

"widely known" is useless in science. Anyone can claim that they know something is X, i.e. pretty much every one of Trump's statements is him claiming that "I know is bad, therefore we must do ". His statement isn't any more true than merely stating that he's wrong without anything to prove his falseness. Science and actual studies do make it true that he's wrong.

Re: US government halts study on health effects of coal mining

#88
post #46

The study's budget was only $1m. Seems like the readership of HN could easily pull that money together and donate the funding, if the researchers could accept it.

The readership won't because they're corporate pawns. I'd bet what's in my bank account on it right now.

Re: US government halts study on health effects of coal mining

#89
post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Well, sure there is: return on investment. If there is one thing history shows us, it is that scientifically minded investment is almost never wasted. The weasel words in that are "almost never". If something has merit then let it stand on its merit. > Our lives are better in many, many ways because purely scientific (or even engineering) endeavors we're funded by the public. Sure and I'm not saying to block them a…

> That was quick. Usually it takes more than one reply before the Nazi references come out. I totally missed this in my reply, but in 2017 if folks are frequently calling you a Nazi it probably isn't a Seinfeld joke.

> I totally missed this in my reply, but in 2017 if folks are frequently calling you a Nazi it probably isn't a Seinfeld joke.

You also missed that I was referring to small minded people jumping to using the word "Nazi" when commenting on anything that involves the President or executive branch.

Re: US government halts study on health effects of coal mining

#90
post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Well, sure there is: return on investment. If there is one thing history shows us, it is that scientifically minded investment is almost never wasted. The weasel words in that are "almost never". If something has merit then let it stand on its merit. > Our lives are better in many, many ways because purely scientific (or even engineering) endeavors we're funded by the public. Sure and I'm not saying to block them a…

> Sure and I'm not saying to block them all. I'm saying it's fine to take a look at them individually, there are no sacred cows, and labeling something "____ Science" doesn't make it beyond reproach. So you request a specific approach with reason and care offered, but base this on the generalism, "Science is not sacred?" Seems contratradictory but okay... Being specific, why wouldn't we carefully measure the impact o…

> So you request a specific approach with reason and care offered, but base this on the generalism, "Science is not sacred?" Seems contratradictory but okay...

> Being specific, why wouldn't we carefully measure the impact of private industry on public health? Private industry isn't on the hook for health emergencies, the public is. So we shut this down because... "waste?"

Sure but there's plenty of other things we should be measuring too. Canceling one doesn't mean we're against measuring things. It just means that the executive branch has prioritized other things above this particular one. That's a natural side effect of limited resources.

> Given the the ongoing phenomenon of our executive parroting nonsense, pseudoscientific marketing speak like "clean coal" it certainly appears to be the executive helping the coal industry with it's long-standing and well-documented agenda of stifling public research and denying transparency.

I'm pretty sure President Obama is the one that championed the phrase "Clean Coal". It didn't make much sense when he said it either (though sequestration is interesting).

> I don't get why cancelling an ongoing public health research project is "my cherries". If the coal industry and their legacy, heavily subsidized, environmentaly damaging, largely export-driven, minimally job creating industry is causing public health crisis, I do not want to further reward them.

So go make some money and fund a project to research the negative effects of things you don't like. Or lobby your representatives to do so. Or organize your fellow citizens to elect a group of officials that will do so.

It's "your cherries" because you're clearly offended by something in this action.

> It's their cherries you're proposing to pick, all the while suggesting that scientifically driving inquiry into public health is a luxury we may not be able to afford.

What we can afford is a sliding scale that has to factor in deficit spending and taxation levels. If you're of the opinion that budgets should be balanced and taxes should be low, then you have to be more selective in what you can afford.

> To which I ask: why? What's in it for anyone? Why are you proposing that defunding public health and environmental research is fair but coal industry subsidies are conveniently absent from your austerity program. Why?

I haven't proposed any specific policy proposals in this thread. All I've claimed from the beginning is that I think we need to look at funding proposals individually. Just because something is "for the public good", "involves public health", "will further science", does not mean the Federal government can or should spend money on it.

Similarly just because the prior administration funded a project does not mean the current one must continue it. If that were true would you be standing behind every executive order that President Trump puts forward, regardless of the outcome of future elections?

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