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U.S. Employers Struggle to Match Workers with Open Jobs

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Re: U.S. Employers Struggle to Match Workers with Open Jobs

#311

Post by evgen »

danjoc wrote: post #261
cynicalkane wrote: post #198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The second one, but if you're not thinking about salary in terms of total comp, you're doing it wrong.

Ahhh, that explains it. When the market crashes, you become plebs like the rest of us. Except you'll be living in the most expensive place in the country.

Not really. At worst you lose a couple of years of growth in prior equity grants but your yearly refresher will be bulked up significantly to account for the diminished value of the stock and voila, pleb no more...

Re: U.S. Employers Struggle to Match Workers with Open Jobs

#312

Post by eikenberry »

jcadam wrote: post #273
wwalser wrote: post #267

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you mean that you actually don't believe it? As in, "I think that's a false statement"? Or do you mean that you're jokingly in "a state of disbelief", as in… surprised or taken aback? I have friends in low cost areas that make around what you're describing. They don't continue doing that because of willful disbelief, they understand that they could move and make 2.5x their current income. They just like the lifest…

Perhaps somewhere in between. While $250k sounds high for a pure code-slinger, I'm willing to believe a few companies (Google, Microsoft, et. al.) choose to pay a small number of their top devs that kind of money. On the other hand, competition for dev jobs in general is so fierce (as in the supply of great devs outstrips the demand by a large margin) that I can't imagine it would be difficult to fill those same posi…

> On the other hand, competition for dev jobs in general is so fierce (as in the supply of great devs outstrips the demand by a large margin)

This is so much the exact opposite of everything I've experienced that I have a hard time believing it. Finding good developers is near impossible, we regularly interview people for months before finding someone halfway decent. And the last time I looked for work I had several offers for remote positions at east coast companies, which makes it hard to believe this is a regional thing.

What sort of work are these great devs doing that is not in demand?

Re: U.S. Employers Struggle to Match Workers with Open Jobs

#313

Post by crispyambulance »

maxxxxx wrote: post #231
crispyambulance wrote: post #229

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perhaps, but I have NEVER heard of somebody getting fired for "up-skilling" while still getting work done.

I have seen people squeezing in a whole new stack just because. Like instead of adding two new web APIs to the existing server suddenly you have that weird beast that's half Node and half .NET.

That's hilarious.

But that's what people do when there's no "boss-sanctioned" way to up-skill and learn new things.

I think lots of smart folks get started by cargo-culting an oversized solution/platform onto their sad boring projects, then gradually step into bigger and better things at other employers.

The two-headed monstrosities are a necessary evil to get started for many people.

Re: U.S. Employers Struggle to Match Workers with Open Jobs

#314

Post by ryandrake »

cynicalkane wrote: post #113
altotrees wrote: post #91

Recently had a recruiter call me, interview me over the phone once, in-person once, and via skype once. The job seemed to be a great fit, the pay was there, everything seemed to be lined up. The recruiter called me again to tell me that they were going to be taking the next steps with me very shortly. A week of silence goes by, then another. I email, inquiring about the position. "Oh, we gave that to someone we had b…

I feel like there's two tiers of the software industry: those employable at AmaFaceGoogFlix or a competitor, and everyone else; but the "everyone else" is completely unaware that the first tier exists. It's like if minor league baseball had no idea about major league baseball. You even see it on HN. Someone will come along and talk about how a senior dev at Google can expect $250k a year. You'll get two categories of…

> Someone will come along and talk about how a senior dev at Google can expect $250k a year. You'll get two categories of replies: "I don't believe this at all, Glassdoor proves you are wrong, nobody I know makes that, blah blah" and "bro that is totally normal".

That's the thing. On one side, you have people who at least have a bit of publicly available data to point to (although sure, one could point out flaws in salary.com and glassdoor.com). On the other side, you have random people saying "Bro, you're totally wrong, lots of people make $400k." Even if I didn't have a dog in this race, I know which side I'd believe.

Re: U.S. Employers Struggle to Match Workers with Open Jobs

#315

Post by maxxxxx »

jaggederest wrote: post #305
maxxxxx wrote: post #231

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have seen people squeezing in a whole new stack just because. Like instead of adding two new web APIs to the existing server suddenly you have that weird beast that's half Node and half .NET.

I think that's one of the gaping flaws to that method of skill acquisition. It's a great way to introduce politics and negative-sum-games to the workplace. Suddenly people are picking projects and stacks based on personal aggrandizement rather than professionalism. Maybe companies should start hiring a chief behavioral (economic?) officer to go with the chief culture officer.

I don't blame this on the people doing it. There are some idiots but in general it's mainly because a lot of people don't feel challenged and therefore look for something interesting.

Managers should encourage innovation but control it. I see so many projects where management rejects every kind of change without discussion. Either only losers will stay in that environment or you get this kind of underground projects. If management looked at something more than only deadlines and budgets the whole climate would improve.

Re: U.S. Employers Struggle to Match Workers with Open Jobs

#316

Post by aianus »

humanrebar wrote: post #277
stale2002 wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If going to the doctor for a checkup costed you 20K out of pocket, would you consider there to be a "shortage" of doctors? How about if it costs a 100$ per loaf of bread? I'd considered that to be a shortage. Even if supply is technically meeting demand.

> How about if it costs a 100$ per loaf of bread? If bread cost that much, we'd start eating more rice, pasta, and potatoes. We'd change our meal plan. Likewise, if the employees you need to hire to execute on your business plan are too expensive, you need to adjust your business plan. Maybe hire different kinds of employees, maybe pursue higher margin opportunities, maybe cut your losses and try something else.

> If bread cost that much, we'd start eating more rice, pasta, and potatoes.

Or maybe we'd import bread from other countries where it goes for $5/loaf? Nah, let's just protect our virtuous $100/loaf domestic industry at all costs and blame the greedy consumers for being selfish and cheap ;)

s/consumers/employers

s/loaf/programmer-hour

Re: U.S. Employers Struggle to Match Workers with Open Jobs

#317

Post by traek »

kspaans wrote: post #306
School-Cotton wrote: post #285

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not that I'm aware -- how would holding it reduce taxes? I'm not sure I understand.

Long Term Capital Gains Tax treatment when you sell (20%) after at least one year vs regular Income Tax treatment if you sell right away.

Yes, but that's only on the capital gains. You still pay income tax on the value of the equity when it's granted.

Re: U.S. Employers Struggle to Match Workers with Open Jobs

#318

Post by ethan_g »

Danihan wrote: post #210
lloyd-christmas wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here's something I wrote on a different discussion about hiring: Imagine I cost my company $50 an hour in salary, and earn them $150 an hour (revenue of 3-5x salary is ballpark for most companies, we'll go for the low end for some perspective). As a senior dev, I have to sit in all the interviews of people potentially joining my team. Imagine we have 10 people that make it through the HR round. I have to participate…

I don't get why companies can't just hire a bunch of more "questionable" applicants at a lower rate, say $45k - $60k or so for junior devs in most cities. No need to spend much effort on the interview process, just make sure they can solve a couple standardized problems, and then "hire" them as contractors for a 90-day trial. Put them onto teams and throw them in the deep end, then get rid of all the ones who can't s…

I think a lot of firms already do something like that through internship programs.

Re: U.S. Employers Struggle to Match Workers with Open Jobs

#319

Post by School-Cotton »

kspaans wrote: post #306
School-Cotton wrote: post #285

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not that I'm aware -- how would holding it reduce taxes? I'm not sure I understand.

Long Term Capital Gains Tax treatment when you sell (20%) after at least one year vs regular Income Tax treatment if you sell right away.

If the stock is $100 when it vests, you pay income tax on $100 per share, whether you hold or sell. It's exactly the same as if you got paid that money in cash and then decided to buy shares (after paying tax).

If you then hold and it goes above $100 while you held, you pay capital gains tax (short or long-term, depending on how long you hold) when you sell.

Again, exactly the same as would happen if you bought those shares yourself with a cash bonus. Getting shares really is the same as cash, for tax purposes.

Re: U.S. Employers Struggle to Match Workers with Open Jobs

#320

Post by aianus »

xenadu02 wrote: post #268
stale2002 wrote: post #224

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If bread costs 100$ per loaf, and people are literally starving to death in the streets because they can't pay for food, is this just the "market clearing rate" for bread where supply is meeting demand, or is there a shortage of bread?

You could have a point if it cost $10 million to hire a senior competent software engineer. It does not. You could have a point if bread cost $75 to produce. It does not. Many of the companies complaining about a shortage of people are posting record profits. Workers are receiving the smallest share of the pie in many decades. In many cases this really is just stingy employers complaining because they want to keep mo…

Are you a stingy asshole if you refuse to pay $50 for a loaf of bread even though you're making $200k a year and can easily afford it?

Of course not. You'll buy a cheaper loaf or you won't buy bread at all or you might even whine in the media about the shortage of bread. All of which would be understandable irrespective of how high your income is.

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