Earlier quoted context omitted.
Sigh. Please see my other reply. It isn't a matter of bit rate (indeed, 16 bits could be more than enough). It is a matter of how engineers serve the targeted markets of each format.
I'm not sure how it's not even more "silly" then. Investing in additional infrastructure, equipment, and effort, when all you need to do is turn down the compressor ratio in the mix... Sounds silly to me.
24/192 Music Downloads Are Very Silly Indeed (2012)
301–310 of 445 posts
Re: 24/192 Music Downloads Are Very Silly Indeed (2012)
#302Not entirely silly. Yes, the purported benefits of this high-fidelity audio are imaginary or even include undesirable traits. However, when most "remasters" of pop music today involve the dynamics being boosted to "loudness wars" standards for a target audience of people listening to the music through earbuds in the street, the 24/192 downloads or SACD releases are often the only way to hear the album with real dynam…
Still very silly IMAO. Very, very few recordings are done in 24/192 because of the many implications this has on your entire studio setup. You'll need an exceptional good clock to start with, and all other equipment needs to align to that clock. Then all plugins/processing you use needs to be in the same 24/192 domain, otherwise your signal is reduced to the limit of that plugin/processing and all previous efforts ar…
> Most music producers use samples...
Most people interested in better-quality sound in this particular context aren't listening to contemporary electronic music with samples. 24/192 or SACD is so desirable for reissues of older recordings in pop or jazz genres where those formats were mastered with higher dynamic range, while the available CD versions or lower-bitrate downloads were mastered with loudness-wars compression. The format is also attractive to classical music listeners, because SACD gives you multichannel audio; and some classical labels are now giving loudness-wars treatment to the non-SACD or non-24/192 formats of a particular new release.
Re: 24/192 Music Downloads Are Very Silly Indeed (2012)
#303Earlier quoted context omitted.
Yes, I've heard people putting the threshold in ~192kbps. Above that it's pretty much impossible these days. I can also tell the difference in 128kpbs, although sometimes it's a bit of nitpicking (can only hear differences in the sounds of hihats and things like that)
I think the type of music you are listening to assists with being able to differentiate. To me (much rock, blues, guitar music) 128kbps MP3 sounds like somebody chewed it first. Cymbals and bizarre snares that sound like the snare is now made of paper indicate the low bitrate. But 256+ and I certainly cannot tell the difference reliably.
Re: 24/192 Music Downloads Are Very Silly Indeed (2012)
#304Earlier quoted context omitted.
Yes, I've heard people putting the threshold in ~192kbps. Above that it's pretty much impossible these days. I can also tell the difference in 128kpbs, although sometimes it's a bit of nitpicking (can only hear differences in the sounds of hihats and things like that)
I think the type of music you are listening to assists with being able to differentiate. To me (much rock, blues, guitar music) 128kbps MP3 sounds like somebody chewed it first. Cymbals and bizarre snares that sound like the snare is now made of paper indicate the low bitrate. But 256+ and I certainly cannot tell the difference reliably.
Re: 24/192 Music Downloads Are Very Silly Indeed (2012)
#305I've always been able to tell when something on Spotify I've heard before is lower quality now. I can instinctively tell in my car when that's the case. It's mostly due to how loud certain parts of the song are or how it sounds at higher volumes. I guess, given what he says, that wouldn't be the case if made sure they were the same dB.
Re: 24/192 Music Downloads Are Very Silly Indeed (2012)
#306Earlier quoted context omitted.
How does 24/192 help with dynamic range?
It has nothing to do with the 24/192 values themselves, but rather the treatment given to the recording during the mastering. Because 24/192 and SACD are "audiophile formats", the engineers who master the recordings expect them to be listened to in serious listening environments that are relatively noise-insulated so that very soft parts can be heard clearly, and there are no complaining neighbours so the loud parts…
Then, 24/192 is mostly a "weak signal" to help you estimate if the audio was treated with care.
Re: 24/192 Music Downloads Are Very Silly Indeed (2012)
#307Monty is wrong. To cover the range of human listeners, the required specs even through use of very insensitive double blind testing (which is geared to substantially indicate the PRESENCE of a difference between examples if that's present, and does NOT similarly indicate/prove the absence of a difference with a comparable degree of confidence: that is a horrible logical fallacy with realworld consequences) are more like 19-21 bit resolution at 55-75K sampling.
Beyond this, there's pretty much no problem (unless you are doing further processing: I've established that quantization exists even in floating point, which a surprising number of audio DSP people seem not to understand. There's a tradeoff between the resolution used in typical audio sample values, and the ability of the exponent to cover values way outside what's required)
That said, it is absurd and annoying to strive so tirelessly to limit the format of audio data to EXACTLY the limits of human hearing and not a inch beyond. What the hell? I would happily double it just for comfort and assurance that nobody would ever possibly have an issue, no matter who they were. Suddenly audio data is so expensive that we can't allow formats to use bytes freely? That's the absurdity I speak of.
Our computers process things in 32-bit chunks (or indeed 64!). If you take great pains to snip away spare bits to where your audio data words are exactly 19 bits or something, the data will only be padded so it can be processed using general purpose computing. It is ludicrous to struggle heroically to limit audio workers and listeners to some word length below 32 bit for their own good, or to save space in a world where video is becoming capable of 1080p uncompressed raw capture. Moore's law left audio behind years ago, never to be troubled by audio's bandwidth requirements again.
Sample rate's another issue as only very nearby or artificial sounds (or some percussion instruments, notably cymbals) contain large amounts of supersonic energy in the first place. However, sharp cutoffs are for synthesizers, not audio. Brickwall filters are garbage, technically awful, and expanding sample rate allows for completely different filter designs. Neil Young's ill-fated Pono took this route. I've got one and it sounds fantastic (and is also a fine tool for getting digital audio into the analog domain in the studio: drive anything with a Pono and it's pretty much like using a live feed). I've driven powerful amplifiers running horn-loaded speakers, capable of astonishing dynamic range. Total lack of grain or any digital sonic signature, at any playback level.
My choice for sample rate at the extreme would be 96K, not 192K. Why? Because it's substantially beyond my own needs and it's established. I'm not dissing 192K, but I wouldn't go to war for it: as an output format, I would rather leave the super high sample rate stuff to DSD (which is qualitatively different from PCM audio in that the error in DSD is frequency-sensitive: more noise in the highs, progressively less as frequency drops).
Even with DSD, which is known to produce excessive supersonic noise even while sounding great, the scaremongering about IM distortion is foolish and wrong. If you have a playback system which is suffering from supersonic noise modulating the audio and harming it, I have three words you should be studying before trying to legislate against other people's use of high sample rates.
"Capacitor", and "Ferrite Choke".
Or, you could simply use an interconnect cable which has enough internal capacitance to tame your signal. If you have a playback system that's capable of being ruined just by 192K digital audio, your playback system is broken and it's wrong to blame that on the format. That would be very silly indeed.
I hope this has been expressed civilly: I am very angry with this attitude as expressed by Monty.
Re: 24/192 Music Downloads Are Very Silly Indeed (2012)
#308Earlier quoted context omitted.
I've noticed the same thing with LP's. While LP's are technically inferior to red book CD's, they're often mastered better.
Why is this? I only have 16 bit 44.1kHz "normal" CDs and I notice some terrible mastering jobs, eg. RHCP Stadium Arcadium loses the snare for the first track and is like listening to minutes of distortion yet apparently the vinyl was really well mastered. Is there a technical reason why the mastering is so different for the two mediums, CD versus vinyl?
Re: 24/192 Music Downloads Are Very Silly Indeed (2012)
#309Earlier quoted context omitted.
I think you have the wrong end of the stick there. Even if a track is heavily multiband compressed, it's still using the full range of levels, as audio will oscillate between -ve and +ve for each cycle, potentially using most of the 65,536 levels available at 16-bit (and the 16777216 levels at 24 bit). The 0.01 is not relevant.
No, I don't have it wrong. Compression means it's effectively using less of the range and the dynamics could be represented with fewer bits in an optimal encoding. All the levels may be used in track, but it's more biased towards the high end. To help you understand, imagine 1-bit audio. What would it sound like? For each frequency, you can only have a single volume, i.e. it's maximally compressed.
Re: 24/192 Music Downloads Are Very Silly Indeed (2012)
#310Earlier quoted context omitted.
No, that has nothing to do with it. See my reply above.
Your reply is not the whole picture. Compression reduces the effective number of bits of resolution.