Earlier quoted context omitted.
I've heard (and it passes the smell test) that even if your ears can't resonate at frequencies higher than human hearing, the space you are in can, and your ears are sensitive to the differences in arrival time that are smaller than the pitches we can't hear. So at least in high sample rate music the imaging could potentially be cleaner. Assuming super great everything else.
That's one of those things that sounds true without putting thought into it but is ultimately false. A 44.1kHz sampled sounds can encode phases with offsets smaller than 22µs (1/44.1k). How much smaller? I'm not exactly sure, but I believe it's dependent on your sample size. My guess is 1/2^16 (assuming sample resolution of 16 bits), but I might be off by a factor of 2 (or indeed 100% wrong) there. Caveat emptor. If…
24/192 Music Downloads Are Very Silly Indeed (2012)
271–280 of 445 posts
Re: 24/192 Music Downloads Are Very Silly Indeed (2012)
#272Earlier quoted context omitted.
It has nothing to do with the 24/192 values themselves, but rather the treatment given to the recording during the mastering. Because 24/192 and SACD are "audiophile formats", the engineers who master the recordings expect them to be listened to in serious listening environments that are relatively noise-insulated so that very soft parts can be heard clearly, and there are no complaining neighbours so the loud parts…
You are proving the point. Treating the audio well, not giving in to the loudness, has only correlation with 24/192 releases (if you say so), there is no causation.
Re: 24/192 Music Downloads Are Very Silly Indeed (2012)
#273Earlier quoted context omitted.
> he says he could tell the difference between high bitrate mp3 and 16 bit 44k wav. In the early days, when all mp3 encoders were pretty bad, I could tell which encoder produced a given file. mp3 encoders today are vastly better. I've not been able to do that party trick in a long time.
I remember the Xing encoder was blazing lay fast, but sounded worse than LAME. This was around 1999, IRRC.
Re: 24/192 Music Downloads Are Very Silly Indeed (2012)
#274And the "44.1KHz is enough" or "48KHz" is enough" people are, sadly, kind of dumb.
How do I know? Because I was dumb, too.
Being a coding/math/audio/video badass, after a few years of industry experience, I rattled off some mouthy kid quip, saying "well, I don't know why we do 24/96, since nobody can hear above 20K anyway..."
And a very talented, very knowledgable, and generally reserved engineer suddenly perked up one eyebrow and said, incredulously "because temporal and frequency response are inherently linked..."
That look was in 2001, and I still remember that feeling of dread sinking in, realizing that I had no idea what he was talking about, no concept of why that would matter. I knew about Nyquist and could write a quick FFT, but he'd spent four years getting a degree in pure audio engineering at the most selective program in the country. That look, which I completely remember today, was like a deeply disappointed parent after a kid has just been bailed out of jail, from one of the nicest engineers I know.
It was late, I was brash, and I pressed on, asking him what he meant. "What's a transient look like, spectrally?" he asked. He waited for my blinks to make audible sounds (due to the apparent hollowness of my head), then he asked "and how many channels of audio do we listen to?"
He watched me stand there, like a doofus, for what seemed to me like several minutes (probably 5-10 seconds), then he went back to coding.
It didn't hit me until weeks later, and I didn't really internalize until years later, that he was hinting at inter-ear phasing the other facilities of our auditory systems besides frequency response. Years later, I read up on Georg von Békésy's incredible work (including positional acuity), and I worked as a tech lead at Digidesign on the first-generation Venue live sound system which operated at 48KHz but with incredibly low latency (processing steps were 1, 2, or 16 samples) due to the requirements of, for instance, vocalists using in-ear monitors.
Along the way, I ran across Microsoft engineers who thought that ~10-20ms inter-channel timing consistency would be okay in Windows Vista (it wasn't), conducted blind tests between 96KHz and 44.1KHz audio (for people who were shocked to immediately notice differences), came across plenty of hot-shot kids who said exactly the same kind of stuff I'd said, and saw postings from xiph making a mix of valid and grossly sophistic arguments ranging from "here's how waveform reconstruction from regularized samples work" (good) to "audio equipment can't even capture signals beyond this range" (dumb). At times, I thought about setting up refutation articles, then I realized, like many, that I had actual work to do.
Von Békésy's work points to positional inter-ear phase fidelity of roughly 10µs. What's the sampling interval at 44.1KHz? >22µs? Good luck rebuilding that stereo field at 44.1...
The trick is that there is a really serious diminishing return on audio sampling rate. 4KHz to 8KHz is enormous... 8KHz to 16KHz is transformative... 16KHz to 32KHz is eye-opening... 32KHz to 48KHz is appreciable... 48KHz to 96KHz is.... pretty minor, especially in the age of crappy $30 earbuds, streaming services delivering heavily compressed audio that will be crammed into a BT headset that may or may not be connected with additional compression, and all of the convenience that those changes bring. You may detect it in some audio if you're really listening, if you know what to listen for, and it may present advantages in system design (converters, processing, etc). From a data-rate perspective, the low-hanging fruit has already been picked.
But people who smugly say that there is "no difference", that audiophiles are buying "snake oil", are letting their ignorance show, and that's including that kid that I was, 16 years ago.
I've since moved out of pure pro media to consumer devices, where precision takes a back seat to the big picture a lot of the time. When discussing an audio fidelity multi-channel problem with a possible vendor last year, I expressed my concern about the inter-channel timing assurance slipping from 1µs to 50µs in product generations. "Depending on the sampling rate, that's several samples of audio", I said.
A very senior engineer on our side (Director equivalent) quickly admonished me, saying "it's microseconds, not milliseconds", to which I said "I know... Which is why it's several samples, not several thousand..."
From the look on his face, I'm 100% sure that he didn't understand me at the time, but I hope he put it together eventually.
In the end, the industry has moved in the opposite direction of 24/192 for a long time. If we can get back to normalization of CD quality audio, I'll be happy.
Re: 24/192 Music Downloads Are Very Silly Indeed (2012)
#275There's a very straightforward practical reason why you might want to keep downloading 24/192. The people who put those together are on average "audiophile" snobs so the rips tend to be perfect, often from high quality sources like SACDs, hdtracks, etc. The source of the recording is usually the best master known for that record (special remastered editions, etc.). If you download mp3/spotify chances are the copy you…
Re: 24/192 Music Downloads Are Very Silly Indeed (2012)
#276Not entirely silly. Yes, the purported benefits of this high-fidelity audio are imaginary or even include undesirable traits. However, when most "remasters" of pop music today involve the dynamics being boosted to "loudness wars" standards for a target audience of people listening to the music through earbuds in the street, the 24/192 downloads or SACD releases are often the only way to hear the album with real dynam…
Re: 24/192 Music Downloads Are Very Silly Indeed (2012)
#277Earlier quoted context omitted.
I don't think there are flaws in the article as you claim. It already explicitly explains that oversampling at the ADC or DAC is an acceptable engineering solution: > Oversampling is simple and clever. You may recall from my A Digital Media Primer for Geeks that high sampling rates provide a great deal more space between the highest frequency audio we care about (20kHz) and the Nyquist frequency (half the sampling ra…
> I don't think there are flaws in the article as you claim. It already explicitly explains that oversampling at the ADC or DAC is an acceptable engineering solution Of course it is acceptable . Even 14 bit audio at 36KHz with a great DAC would be fairly nice, acceptable. What the article claims is that 192KHz is useless, of no benefit. And i contend that it is of benefit when you want more than just good or acceptab…
The article claims that 192KHz downloads are of no benefit. It's right there in the article's title. It's difficult to not accuse you of willfully misinterpreting his argument.
Re: 24/192 Music Downloads Are Very Silly Indeed (2012)
#278Earlier quoted context omitted.
How does 24/192 help with dynamic range?
It has nothing to do with the 24/192 values themselves, but rather the treatment given to the recording during the mastering. Because 24/192 and SACD are "audiophile formats", the engineers who master the recordings expect them to be listened to in serious listening environments that are relatively noise-insulated so that very soft parts can be heard clearly, and there are no complaining neighbours so the loud parts…
I noticed a similar thing with TV a few years ago. Despite watching a standard def. channel on a SD TV some programmes had a very noticeably better image quality. I think these had been shot and edited in HD and although the 'last mile' was still in SD there had been less degradation in the processing so the final picture was much better.
Re: 24/192 Music Downloads Are Very Silly Indeed (2012)
#279Not entirely silly. Yes, the purported benefits of this high-fidelity audio are imaginary or even include undesirable traits. However, when most "remasters" of pop music today involve the dynamics being boosted to "loudness wars" standards for a target audience of people listening to the music through earbuds in the street, the 24/192 downloads or SACD releases are often the only way to hear the album with real dynam…
I've noticed the same thing with LP's. While LP's are technically inferior to red book CD's, they're often mastered better.
Is there a technical reason why the mastering is so different for the two mediums, CD versus vinyl?
Re: 24/192 Music Downloads Are Very Silly Indeed (2012)
#280Earlier quoted context omitted.
I remember the Xing encoder was blazing lay fast, but sounded worse than LAME. This was around 1999, IRRC.
Yep, especially bad on cymbals - always a dead giveaway.