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We Need to Nationalise Google, Facebook and Amazon

theguardian.com

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Re: We Need to Nationalise Google, Facebook and Amazon

#101

Post by lvoudour »

>We’ve only begun to grasp the problem, but in the past, natural monopolies like utilities and railways that enjoy huge economies of scale and serve the common good have been prime candidates for public ownership. The solution to our newfangled monopoly problem lies in this sort of age-old fix, updated for our digital age. It would mean taking back control over the internet and our digital infrastructure, instead of allowing them to be run in the pursuit of profit and power.

The article is a mishmash of sensationalism and trending buzzwords.

OK let's accept the argument that said companies are "too big". Why nationalize them? To nationalize a company you first have to ask the question what are the consequences for the nation if company X increases prices/fails/stops offering services? If the answer is not dire, you don't touch them

I'll buy that search is important, but what's the vital utility of google apart from that, e-mail and maps? Android? Facebook is a chat/opinion/vanity medium, are we really saying that losing facebook (or whatsapp or whatever) access is a national emergency? I can't buy the argument about "our data". Privacy is important and mishandling of personal data should be severely punished, but that's not an argument for letting the state operate those companies - that's an argument for better laws and enforcement.

And how do you nationalize a globally accessed service with limited physical national presence anyway? This is getting more silly by the minute

There are antitrust/competition laws in every capitalist country, if a company is too big just break it - it won't be the first time or the last. If you think a company mishandles or has privileged access to something it shouldn't (your citizen's data) just punish it and limit its access.

Re: We Need to Nationalise Google, Facebook and Amazon

#102

Post by kbart »

simonh wrote: post #97
jasiek wrote: post #88

So currently, you have a choice not to use google/fb/amazon. If they were to be nationalized (a truly silly idea), you may lose that choice.

This might look like a silly comment, but it really isn't. Let's say FB was nationalised. So now if you want to contact your local government office you do so through Facebook. The library service is accessed through FB. Drivers Licenses and professional certifications are linked to your FB profile as are medical and criminal records. Government information and services would only be indexed in Google. Amazon would b…

Don't know about other countries, but at least in Lithuania there are laws against such scenarios.

Re: We Need to Nationalise Google, Facebook and Amazon

#103

Post by lucb1e »

hnlmorg wrote: post #74
lucb1e wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This would also make me a lot happier about sharing info with said companies. Right now I avoid their products (the non-open source ones) because they just have too much market share and power, but if a site like Facebook turned non-profit I'd be much happier to use it. It just sounds like a great idea all around.

Honestly I'd be more worried about nation states having access to the information held on Facebook and Google than I would private corporations.

Nobody said anything about a nation state (in this subthread). Just non-profit and tightly regulated.

Re: We Need to Nationalise Google, Facebook and Amazon

#104

Post by simonh »

panic wrote: post #52
CryptoPunk wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>From a socialist's pov putting a profitable industry in the domain of _everyone_ and sharing the profits is freeing capital from the few and providing an (more)equal share to all. It's not capitalism but that does not mean it isn't "freedom". I don't believe all ideologies and their definitions need to be given equal respect. Socialists shouldn't get to just redefine "freedom" to mean a government monopoly running m…

The whole point is that these companies are inherently resistant to competition. Nationalization doesn't require limiting access to any other service or restricting competition in any way.

In which case there is no need to nationalise, because by definition if another competitor can be created then the government can create one itself.

All nationalising would do is give the government a leg-up in having an existing user base. In practice government inertia would lead to the service atrophying and becoming outdated and overburdened with bureaucratic controls and costs. Page & Brin, Bezos and Zuckerberg (or someone new) would each raise capital, start their own competing services and in a few years time we'd be back where we started.

This whole idea is so utterly misconceived and pointless it blows my mind how many people here are trying to justify or defend it. Unless you actively regulated to prohibit competing private services, it would be doomed from he start and if such regulation was enforced - literally banning other search engines including Bing, banning other social networks, banning any other online retail businesses, the lurch towards dystopianism would create a very different world to the one we live in. Even China hadn't come even close to anything like that.

Re: We Need to Nationalise Google, Facebook and Amazon

#105

Post by jerrre »

lvoudour wrote: post #101

>We’ve only begun to grasp the problem, but in the past, natural monopolies like utilities and railways that enjoy huge economies of scale and serve the common good have been prime candidates for public ownership. The solution to our newfangled monopoly problem lies in this sort of age-old fix, updated for our digital age. It would mean taking back control over the internet and our digital infrastructure, instead of…

>Facebook is a chat/opinion/vanity medium, are we really saying that losing facebook (or whatsapp or whatever) access is a national emergency?

Not a direct answer, but this triggered me to wonder how many relations/connections would be lost because people have no other details of each other than what's on facebook.

Re: We Need to Nationalise Google, Facebook and Amazon

#106

Post by krylon »

I am not opposed to public ownership of these companies per se. Letting them just go on uncontrolled does pose dangers we are just beginning to understand.

But given rhe massive surveillance and largely uncontrolled data hoarding our governments and their intelligence agencies have engaged in, I do not think handing control of Google, Facebook and so forth over to the (any) government is a good idea.

In the long run, we need to do something, bur I think we need to come up with a better idea.

Re: We Need to Nationalise Google, Facebook and Amazon

#107

Post by igravious »

slowmovintarget wrote: post #87
bem94 wrote: post #18

I think a lot of the "oh my gosh nationalisation is such an awful idea" / "not in my free society" comments are missing the point. I too believe nationalisation is a bad idea in this case , but given the enormous reaction it would bring, can you imagine how awful the situation appears to be from the authors (any many other non-tech-bubble) peoples perspective to even contemplate such a thing? Let alone write an opini…

Things are awful because someone wrote an opinion piece in the newspaper? I heartily disagree that anyone should "detect a consensus" from leftists preaching expropriation. That's just an ordinary activity for them. Nick Srnicek may be shouting a bit louder than most from his pulpit in The Guardian, but that has as little to do with truth as his article has to do with reason. Google, Facebook, and Amazon are just fas…

That's not what bread and circuses means.

That expression is a cynical look at the relationship of the individual to the State: so long as my belly is full and I am entertained I'm all right Jack.

“… Already long ago, from when we sold our vote to no man, the People have abdicated our duties; for the People who once upon a time handed out military command, high civil office, legions — everything, now restrains itself and anxiously hopes for just two things: bread and circuses”

So, no, this is not the circus part.

Re: We Need to Nationalise Google, Facebook and Amazon

#108

Post by mmmnt »

naibafo wrote: post #49
mmmnt wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I guess the idea is that each country or region has its own Google, Facebook or Amazon - Not that it all belongs to the US government. I would also argue that they are US companies first and global companies second. Their main focus is always USA and their spirit is also very American for the good and the bad. Strategy for the rest of the world is made in the USA. All important decision are made in the USA. Most inve…

According to [1] 75% of Facebook Users are located outside the US. And According to [2] India has more Facebook Users than the US. The statistics differ somehow, though they both should be current, but the point remains: Facebook is very much a global company. I am sure that you can find similar statistics for Google or Amazon. [1] https://brandongaille.com/facebook-user-statistics-by-countr... [2] https://www.statis…

I didn't say that their audience is not outside of the USA. Feel free to re-read what I wrote.

Think about it like that. BMW sells most of their cars outside of Germany but still is a German company that operates world wide. And this is very true for most big companies today.

Re: We Need to Nationalise Google, Facebook and Amazon

#109

Post by KGIII »

mozumder wrote: post #81
olau wrote: post #17

Actually, I think behind the nationalisation idea, which doesn't seem workable given the circumstances, there's an interesting thought: these companies are sitting on basic infrastructure so instead of treating them like other companies, perhaps we should treat them like utilities. Note that this piece appears in The Guardian. I don't know how it works in the US, but I'm of the impression that in many European countr…

If you want to turn these into utilities, you start with a standardization process that allows the public to utilize them as infrastructure. Like there is an HTML standard, there would likely be a search standard and a social-network/photo-sharing/messaging-platform standard. People would run their own servers that host their own data that connects to these standards, with other companies creating apps that people ca…

The trouble is that nobody follows the standards. Well, very few do. Not even the browsers are standards compliant.

Re: We Need to Nationalise Google, Facebook and Amazon

#110

Post by gaius »

jpttsn wrote: post #59
bem94 wrote: post #18

I think a lot of the "oh my gosh nationalisation is such an awful idea" / "not in my free society" comments are missing the point. I too believe nationalisation is a bad idea in this case , but given the enormous reaction it would bring, can you imagine how awful the situation appears to be from the authors (any many other non-tech-bubble) peoples perspective to even contemplate such a thing? Let alone write an opini…

Are you sure the authors are writing this story out of a genuine heartfelt fear? Do you think the editor who published them shares this genuine fear?

The Graun is ideologically committed to nationalising all the things. It would be noteworthy if they ever called for anything to remain private, let alone be privatised.

Having said that there's a decent case for Google being broken up.

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