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Increasing numbers of wingsuit jumpers are dying (2016)

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Re: Increasing numbers of wingsuit jumpers are dying (2016)

#191

Post by aaroninsf »

e40 wrote: post #146
chrissnell wrote: post #16

I had a close call this summer whitewater rafting on the Upper Animas River in Colorado and it has caused me to re-think every serious risk I take and has changed me in a big way. I was participating in a multi-day trip run by one of the local guiding outfits through the Upper section of the river, a much more difficult and serious undertaking than the Lower Animas, which is frequently run by average day-tripping tou…

In my 30's I drove a motorcycle, the crotch rocket variety (Kawasaki 750). I had a few very close calls, then decided I had had a good run and a lot of fun, but it was time to hang it up. I could see the writing on the wall: keep doing this and I would have a serious accident, that would either leave me dead or seriously injured. I was, at the time, planning a family, and to this day miss riding but think it was abso…

It was the right choice for a long and full life for sure.

My brother hung up, after being the Laid down his bike, impact threw him over the median into oncoming traffic. When they put him in the helicopter he had zero blood pressure, a collapsed lung, and a snapped tibia sticking out. He wasn't wearing the armor my wife and I bought him as a Christmas present a few months earlier; it was too hot.

Heart surgeon got to his aorta when there was one layer of cells left. If it had also split, he would have bled out in No one who worked on him had ever even heard of someone surviving injuries of his type.

Happy ending in this case. Rod in his leg but he runs 5ks. Happily married. Works in this industry.

But it's made me the annoying guy who stops colleagues and friends who ride (once) like some crusty Ancient Mariner to say, I'm that annoying guy who's going to urge you to not ride, because ...

Glad you made it!

Re: Increasing numbers of wingsuit jumpers are dying (2016)

#192

Post by JoeDaDude »

amelius wrote: post #152
chrissnell wrote: post #16

I had a close call this summer whitewater rafting on the Upper Animas River in Colorado and it has caused me to re-think every serious risk I take and has changed me in a big way. I was participating in a multi-day trip run by one of the local guiding outfits through the Upper section of the river, a much more difficult and serious undertaking than the Lower Animas, which is frequently run by average day-tripping tou…

I've heard that skydiving triggers this experience at some point. The first time it's frightening. The second to fourth time it gives you an adrenaline rush. The fifth time suddenly you think "holy shit, what am I doing?" At least, that's what a friend told me.

The sixth time, you realize it's a sport. There are skills to learn, goals to achieve, and both fun and serious competitions to pursue

At this point you learn that risk and danger are, to some degree, under your control. Maintain your gear, don't do stupid stunts, do jump with well known safety practices (e.g.: minimum opening altitude, separation before opening, etc.).

Also, skydiving is not the same sport as BASE jumping.

Re: Increasing numbers of wingsuit jumpers are dying (2016)

#193

Post by itsdevlin »

bira wrote: post #187
itsdevlin wrote: post #177

Active BASE jumper and wingsuit pilot here. Instructor of both. 2016 was by far and away our worst year on record. We lost newbies, heros, and damn near all levels in between. Since then, a few sites have taken a more locked-down approach where we used to be welcome, and as a community we've made progress to band together to push education and conservative decision making over 'dude that was so sketchy.' A lot of peo…

Are you willing to die for it?

In short, no.

To bring a strawman into this: Would you die for your commute? What about a burger? A beer? All of these things kill people, and all of them can be avoided. People don't, because they like them. They accept the given level of risk by mitigating it as best they can, and going on about their lives. Risk is omnipresent.

The real killer is when you don't understand the risk. If you think something has a 1:1mm risk of serious physical harm, you'll probably be alright with it. If something has a 1:100 risk of the same level of physical harm, you'll probably think twice (or you'll prepare yourself differently).

Risk management takes two forms in our world: Unknown Unknowns, and Normalization of Risk. For newbies, unknown unknowns kill them. Thinking something is a 1:1m risk when it's 1:100 provides a real easy way to put yourself in a situation you're unprepared to handle. For experienced jumpers, normalization of risk is what seems to be killing us. If you take a shortcut that increases risk 10x, but you've taken it 1k times, in your brain it just becomes 'the way' and you forget that you're actually multiplying your risk. Do that enough different times and what in your brain is just 'the way' is actually the summation of a complex web of risk-multiplying shortcuts.

Remember both of those things, and you might make to your next birthday. Maybe. Maybe you'll get killed sitting at a stoplight by being rear-ended by a drunk driver, like my first base jumping mentor was.

Re: Increasing numbers of wingsuit jumpers are dying (2016)

#194

Post by marssaxman »

eternalcode wrote: post #36
damnfine wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bet its even closer than you think. Nobody I know who does BASE is still alive. Some quit, others died. Everyone just kind of expects to die doing it. Blue skies, black death.

Why is it not banned?

Why must everything dangerous be illegal?

Some people are comfortable taking greater risks than others. We should be free to make that choice without threat of legal harassment.

Re: Increasing numbers of wingsuit jumpers are dying (2016)

#195

Post by itsdevlin »

659087 wrote: post #190
itsdevlin wrote: post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It does, and most BASE jumpers that I know / have met / have taught are in their earlY 30's.

> I've managed to have a somewhat clean track record in my two years in the sport, with only two broken bones ... > It does, and most BASE jumpers that I know / have met / have taught 2 years in the sport, already broke yourself twice, and already "teaching" other jumpers? Don't forget to burn some sites on youtube and facebook, to complete the package. Remember - if you didn't get any likes for it, the jump never ha…

To clarify, it was one landing where I broke two bones. Made a bad decision at the bridge on my 9th jump and broke both sides of my ankle smoking into the side of the canal. I tell everyone I know exactly how I ended up in that situation, what my decision making process was, and how I assess jumps now in order to not put myself in the same situation again.

Also, I work at a large dropzone and with a well-organized group to help coach new jumpers along the way. Me breaking myself on my first weekend is a pretty strong coaching moment that I've watched shift people's view on the sport.

Happy to let you know who I am in real life if you feel this strongly that I'm part of the problem.

Re: Increasing numbers of wingsuit jumpers are dying (2016)

#196

Post by wazoox »

itsdevlin wrote: post #177

Active BASE jumper and wingsuit pilot here. Instructor of both. 2016 was by far and away our worst year on record. We lost newbies, heros, and damn near all levels in between. Since then, a few sites have taken a more locked-down approach where we used to be welcome, and as a community we've made progress to band together to push education and conservative decision making over 'dude that was so sketchy.' A lot of peo…

If you need your mind to be quiet, and to feel present to your life, there are non-life threatening ways, like mindful meditation and psychoanalysis, or maybe even working in a charity.

Re: Increasing numbers of wingsuit jumpers are dying (2016)

#197

Post by itsdevlin »

wazoox wrote: post #196
itsdevlin wrote: post #177

Active BASE jumper and wingsuit pilot here. Instructor of both. 2016 was by far and away our worst year on record. We lost newbies, heros, and damn near all levels in between. Since then, a few sites have taken a more locked-down approach where we used to be welcome, and as a community we've made progress to band together to push education and conservative decision making over 'dude that was so sketchy.' A lot of peo…

If you need your mind to be quiet, and to feel present to your life, there are non-life threatening ways, like mindful meditation and psychoanalysis, or maybe even working in a charity.

I also do those. I also climb, slackline, paraglide, ride motorcycles, surf, ride bikes, and read on the beach.

Re: Increasing numbers of wingsuit jumpers are dying (2016)

#198

Post by JoeDaDude »

tootie wrote: post #24

Extreme sports like this just feel so dumb. Why are you risking your life for a momentary thrill? You'd get a better rush and be safer taking heroin.

Charles Lindbergh [1] has the best answer:

"[W]hen I decided that I too must pass through the experience of a parachute jump, life rose to a higher level, to a sort of exhilarated calmness. The thought of crawling out onto the struts and wires hundreds of feet above the earth, and then giving up even that tenuous hold of safety and of substance, left me a feeling of anticipation mixed with dread, of confidence restrained by caution, of courage salted through with fear. How tightly should one hold onto life? How loosely give it rein? What gain was there for such a risk? I would have to pay in money for hurling my body into space. There would be no crowd to watch and applaud my landing. Nor was there any scientific objective to be gained. No, there was deeper reason for wanting to jump, a desire I could not explain.

It was that quality that led me into aviation in the first place — it was a love of the air and sky and flying, the lure of adventure, the appreciation of beauty. It lay beyond the descriptive words of man — where immortality is touched through danger, where life meets death on equal plane; where man is more than man, and existence both supreme and valueless at the same instant. "

[1] 'The Spirit of St Louis,' Charles A. Lindbergh, 1953

Re: Increasing numbers of wingsuit jumpers are dying (2016)

#199

Post by emodendroket »

Piskvorrr wrote: post #165
emodendroket wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Out of any given pool of 1000 people? Probably not as many.

And out of a pool of similar 1000 people? I seem to recall that affluent young men used to kill themselves in sports-car racing in the preceding decades. Perhaps this is a confounding factor: as Spooky23 notes in a sibling comment, "Cars are engineered to protect all but the most reckless and negligent from death" - but indeed, who else would choose BASE but the reckless and the self-proclaimed immortals?

If we're talking about car racing, rather than just driving a car, yes, I agree it is pretty dangerous. Probably still not as dangerous as trying to navigate canyons in a wing suit.

Re: Increasing numbers of wingsuit jumpers are dying (2016)

#200

Post by dahart »

InclinedPlane wrote: post #64
chrissnell wrote: post #16

I had a close call this summer whitewater rafting on the Upper Animas River in Colorado and it has caused me to re-think every serious risk I take and has changed me in a big way. I was participating in a multi-day trip run by one of the local guiding outfits through the Upper section of the river, a much more difficult and serious undertaking than the Lower Animas, which is frequently run by average day-tripping tou…

Not to "umm actually" your excellent story, but rock climbing is not that dangerous. It's about as dangerous as driving, which people do all the time without even thinking about it. Mountaineering is where the danger is there, primarily.

> rock climbing is not that dangerous. It's about as dangerous as driving

  Expert mountain climbers: Annual mortality risk of 1 in 167.
  Skydiving - Annual mortality risk of 1 in 1,580.
  Recreational climbing - Annual mortality risk of 1 in 1,750.
  Driving in the U.S. - Annual mortality risk of 1 in 6,700.
So, mountaineering is indeed 10x more dangerous than rock climbing, but rock climbing is still 4x more dangerous than driving, which is enough that I'd personally hesitate to equate them.

Source: http://www.besthealthdegrees.com/health-risks/

P.S. I hate sharing this because the infographic at the top is wrong on skydiving. (The picture at the top uses annual mortality rate for all other sports, but compares skydiving's risk per jump, so it's invalid to compare them together, but a lot of people aren't looking at the fine print. A single jump is a 1 in 100,000 change of dying, but skydiving lost an annual average of 1 per 1580 participants over the last 5 years. http://test.uspa.org/facts-faqs/safety)

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